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· ·IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF COOK COUNTY, ILLINOIS
· · · · · COUNTY DEPARTMENT - LAW DIVISION
·ANTONIO LEGRIER, Individually· )
·and as Special Administrator· ·)
·of the Estate of QUINTONIO· · ·)
·LEGRIER, Deceased,· · · · · · ·)
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
· · · · · · · ·Plaintiff,· · · ·)
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
· · ·vs.· · · · · · · · · · · · )· No. 15 L 12964
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
·CITY OF CHICAGO,· · · · · · · ·)
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
· · · · · · · ·Defendant.· · · ·)
·----------------------------· ·)· Consolidated with
·LATARSHA JONES, Individually· ·)
·and as Special Administrator· ·)
·of the Estate of BETTIE RUTH· ·)
·JONES, Deceased, and LATISHA· ·)
·JONES,· · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
· · · · · · · ·Plaintiffs,· · · )
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
· · ·vs.· · · · · · · · · · · · )· No. 16 L 00012
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
·CITY OF CHICAGO,· · · · · · · ·)
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
· · · · · · · ·Defendant.· · · ·)

16· · · · · · The video-recorded discovery deposition
17· of RAHM EMANUEL, taken under oath on Thursday,
18· March 29, 2018, at Richard J. Daley Center,
19· 50 West Washington Street, Courtroom 2206, Chicago,
20· Illinois, pursuant to the Rules of the Supreme
21· Court of Illinois and the Code of Civil Procedure,
22· before Nick D. Bowen, Certified Shorthand Reporter
23· No. 084-001661, commencing at 2:31 p.m., pursuant
24· to notice.
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·APPEARANCES:
· · · FOUTRIS LAW OFFICE, LTD., by
· · · MR. BASILEIOS J. FOUTRIS
· · · (53 West Jackson Boulevard, Suite 252
· · · ·Chicago, Illinois· 60604
· · · ·312.212.1200
· · · ·bfoutris@foutrislaw.com)
· · · · · · · · · ·-and· · · JAMES D. MONTGOMERY & ASSOCIATES, LTD., by
· · · MR. JOHN K.J. KENNEDY and
· · · MR. DANIEL WATKINS
· · · (One North LaSalle Street, Suite 2450
· · · ·Chicago, Illinois· 60602
· · · ·312.977.0200
· · · ·jkennedy@jdmlaw.com
· · · ·dwatkins@jdmlaw.com)
· · · · ·appeared on behalf of the plaintiff
· · · · ·Antonio LeGrier, individually and as
· · · · ·Special Administrator of the Estate
· · · · ·of Quintonio LeGrier, deceased;
· · · POWER ROGERS & SMITH, PC, by
· · · MR. LARRY ROGERS, JR. and
· · · MR. JONATHAN M. THOMAS
· · · (70 West Madison Street, Suite 5500
· · · ·Chicago, Illinois· 60602-4212
· · · ·312.236.9381
· · · ·lrogersjr@prslaw.com
· · · ·jthomas@prslaw.com)
· · · · ·appeared on behalf of the plaintiff
· · · · ·Latarsha Jones, individually and as
· · · · ·Special Administrator of the Estate of
· · · · ·Bettie Ruth Jones, deceased, and
· · · · ·Latisha Jones;
· · · HONORABLE EDWARD N. SISKEL CORPORATION
· · · COUNSEL, by
· · · MR. EDWARD N. SISKEL and
· · · MS. NAOMI AVENDANO
· · · (30 North LaSalle Street, Suite 900
· · · ·Chicago, Illinois· 60602
· · · ·312.744.8364
· · · ·edward.siskel@cityofchicago.org
· · · ·naomi.avenano@cityofchicago.org)
· · · · ·appeared on behalf of the defendant
· · · · ·City of Chicago;

Page 4

·1· · · · · · · · · · · ·I N D E X
·2
· · Witness:· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Page
·3
· · · · ·RAHM EMANUEL
·4
· · · · · · · Examination by:
·5
· · · · · · · Mr. Rogers...................· · · 7
·6· · · · · · Mr. Brodsky..................· · 130
· · · · · · · Mr. Foutris..................· · 145
·7
·8
·9· · · · · · · · · · E X H I B I T S
10· ·No.· ·Description· · · · · · · · Marked/Referenced
11· · ·1· Chicago Tribune Op Ed..................· 15
· · · ·2· 12/09/2015 Remarks of Mayor Rahm
12· · · · Emanuel................................· 30
· · · ·3· Text Messages..........................· 33
13· · ·4· 12/28/2015 New York Times Article......· 41
· · · ·5· Municipal Code Chapter 2-78 COPA.......· 49
14· · ·6· COPA Website - Jurisdiction............· 51
· · · ·7· COPA's Summary Report..................· 66
15· · ·8· COPA's Recommendation..................· 79
· · · ·9· Transcript of the Discovery
16· · · · Deposition of Superintendent Johnson...· 83
· · · 10· 03/22/2018 Letter...................... 100
17· · 11· Special Order S08-01-01................ 122
· · · 12· FCRL002316-FCRL002323.................. 148
18
19· · · · · · ·(Exhibits attached/scanned.)
20
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·1· · · ·APPEARANCES:· (Cont;d)
·2· · · · · · LAW OFFICE OF JOEL A. BRODSKY, by
· · · · · · · MR. JOEL A. BRODSKY
·3· · · · · · (8 South Michigan Avenue, Suite 3200
· · · · · · · ·Chicago, Illinois· 60603
·4· · · · · · ·312.541.7000
· · · · · · · ·jbrodsky@joelbrodskylaw.com)
·5· · · · · · · ·appeared on behalf of the counter· · · · · · · · ·plaintiff Officer Robert Rialmo.
·6
· · · · ·ALSO PRESENT:
·7
· · · · · · · Judge James N. O'Hara
·8· · · · · · Mr. Joe Beile, Video Technician
· · · · · · · Mr. Antonio LeGrier.
·9
· · · · · · · · · · ·*· *· *· *· *· *
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·1· · · · THE VIDEO TECHNICIAN:· Recording.
·2· · · · · · · · ·For the record, my name is Joe Beile
·3· with Video Instanter.· I'm the video recording
·4· device operator for this deposition.· Our business
·5· address is 134 North LaSalle Street, Suite 1400,
·6· Chicago, Illinois, 60602.
·7· · · · · · · · ·This deposition is being video
·8· recorded pursuant to Illinois Supreme Court Rule
·9· 206 and all other applicable state and local rules.
10· · · · · · · · ·We are at the Richard J. Daley Center
11· in Chicago, Illinois to take the video-recorded
12· discovery deposition of Mayor Rahm Emanuel in
13· the matter of Latarsha Jones versus the City of
14· Chicago, et al., case No. 2015 L 12964 consolidated
15· into 2016 L 000012 in the Circuit Court of Cook
16· County, Illinois, County Department, Law Division.
17· · · · · · · · ·Today's date is March 29, 2018, and
18· the time is 2:31 p.m.
19· · · · · · · · ·This deposition is being video
20· recorded at the instance of the plaintiff and
21· is being taken on behalf of the plaintiff.
22· · · · · · · · ·Would the attorneys present please
23· introduce themselves for the record?
24· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Larry Rogers, Jr. for the

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·1· plaintiff, Jones plaintiffs.
·2· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· Joel Brodsky on behalf of
·3· Officer Robert Rialmo.
·4· · · · MR. THOMAS:· Jonathan Thomas for the Jones
·5· plaintiffs.
·6· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· Basileios Foutris for the
·7· LeGrier plaintiffs.
·8· · · · MR. KENNEDY:· Jack Kennedy also for the
·9· LeGrier plaintiffs.
10· · · · MR. WATKINS:· Daniel Watkins for the LeGrier
11· plaintiffs.
12· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Ed Siskel, City of Chicago.
13· · · · MS. AVENDANO:· Naomi Avendano, City of
14· Chicago.
15· · · · MAYOR EMANUEL:· Rahm Emanuel, Mayor.
16· · · · THE VIDEO TECHNICIAN:· Would the court
17· reporter please introduce themselves and swear
18· in the witness.
19· · · · · · · · · · · (Witness sworn.)
20
21
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23
24

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·1· deposition before?
·2· · · · A.· · I think so.
·3· · · · Q.· · Have you ever given one while you sat
·4· as the Mayor?
·5· · · · A.· · Yes.
·6· · · · Q.· · Okay.· How many have you given before
·7· while you sat as the Mayor?
·8· · · · A.· · One.
·9· · · · Q.· · What was the context of that deposition?
10· · · · A.· · It was around the security detail for
11· the Mayor.
12· · · · Q.· · Okay.· That was litigation in federal
13· court over the detail?
14· · · · A.· · I think so, yeah.
15· · · · Q.· · Okay.· We're here today to talk largely
16· about the events leading up to the December 26,
17· 2015 shooting deaths of Quintonio LeGrier and
18· Bettie Jones and policies that were in place
19· leading up to that as well as that were implemented
20· thereafter to give you some context.
21· · · · · · · · ·I understand you were not there that
22· day, so you don't know factually what necessarily
23· happened that day.· But we have gotten information
24· indicating that you do have some information about

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·1· · · · · · · · · · · RAHM EMANUEL
·2· called as a witness herein, having been first duly
·3· sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
·4· · · · · · · · · · · EXAMINATION
·5· BY MR. ROGERS:
·6· · · · Q.· · Good afternoon.
·7· · · · · · · · ·Can you state your name for the
·8· record, please?
·9· · · · A.· · Rahm Emanuel.
10· · · · Q.· · Okay.· You are the Mayor of the City of
11· Chicago?
12· · · · A.· · Correct.
13· · · · Q.· · Its highest executive officer, correct?
14· · · · A.· · Correct.
15· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Let the record reflect this is
16· the discovery deposition of Mayor Rahm Emanuel
17· taken pursuant to notice and by agreement of the
18· parties as to date, time, and location and by order
19· of the court.
20· · · · · · · · ·The deposition is being taken
21· pursuant to the Illinois Supreme Court Rules
22· and all applicable local court rules.
23· BY MR. ROGERS:
24· · · · Q.· · Have you ever given a discovery

·1· the incident.· Is that correct?
·2· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection; outside the scope.
·3· · · · THE COURT:· Well, it -·4· · · · MR. ROGERS:· It's contextual.
·5· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Well, let's make it a simple
·6· question.
·7· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Sure.
·8· · · · THE COURT:· Does he have any information
·9· involving this incident.
10· BY MR. ROGERS:
11· · · · Q.· · Do you have any information about the
12· December 26, 2015 incident?
13· · · · A.· · I don't mean to say this, but it
14· depends what you mean by that.· I do -15· · · · Q.· · Okay.
16· · · · A.· · Some information as the Mayor.
17· · · · Q.· · Sure.
18· · · · A.· · Okay.
19· · · · Q.· · Sure.· Okay.
20· · · · · · · · ·Let me just begin by talking to ask
21· you this:· Did you review anything in preparation
22· for your deposition?
23· · · · A.· · I just met with the lawyers.
24· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Did they give you any documents

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·1· to review?
·2· · · · A.· · No.
·3· · · · Q.· · Have you reviewed the COPA report?
·4· · · · A.· · Have I reviewed the COPA report?
·5· · · · Q.· · Yeah.
·6· · · · A.· · Not allowed to.· It's not appropriate
·7· for the Mayor to look at anything.
·8· · · · Q.· · Okay.· So irrespective of what is and
·9· isn't appropriate, have you reviewed the COPA
10· report?
11· · · · A.· · No.· I -- I mean, the short answer is
12· no.· As you know, there's a process, and I know you
13· know this, Larry, is -- and so that process -14· wall -- puts a Chinese wall between me and anything
15· as it relates to a situation like this.
16· · · · Q.· · Okay.· I want to distinguish between
17· the process and investigation versus the ultimate
18· report that was issued.
19· · · · A.· · Okay.
20· · · · Q.· · Have you seen the final -- the summary
21· report that was prepared by COPA?
22· · · · A.· · No.
23· · · · Q.· · Okay.· But that summary report has been
24· released to the public.· You have not --

·1· · · · Q.· · All right.· Okay.· Again, the context
·2· of my questions is the December 26, 2015 shooting
·3· and the subsequent investigations.· When I say
·4· "COPA report," you know I'm referring to the COPA
·5· report that investigated that incident, correct?
·6· · · · A.· · Your assumption and my assumption
·7· aren't the same.
·8· · · · Q.· · Okay.
·9· · · · A.· · Sorry for doing that.
10· · · · Q.· · No.· That's okay.
11· · · · · · · · ·On March 22nd, there was a non12· concurrence letter issued by Superintendent Eddie
13· Johnson.
14· · · · · · · · ·Have you reviewed that letter?
15· · · · A.· · I have not reviewed that letter.
16· · · · Q.· · Okay.· All right.
17· · · · A.· · For context, since you're deciding -18· my view was to make sure that I abided by a process
19· set up to -- both from COPA to the Superintendent.
20· There's a Chinese wall, not just for me, but for
21· any elected officials, to abide by that in both
22· letter and spirit.
23· · · · Q.· · Okay.· And I -- and I'm not suggesting
24· you were interfering with the investigation or the

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·1· · · · A.· · That -·2· · · · Q.· · -- seen that?
·3· · · · A.· · What I've seen is what's in the
·4· newspaper.
·5· · · · Q.· · Okay.· So you have seen the summary
·6· report?
·7· · · · A.· · I've seen what's -·8· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection; mischaracterizes the
·9· testimony.
10· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· That's sustained.
11· · · · · · · · ·Go -- reask the question.
12· BY MR. ROGERS:
13· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Tell me what you've reviewed in
14· terms of -15· · · · A.· · Whatever has been in the public domain,
16· meaning the newspaper articles.
17· · · · Q.· · Okay.· So there have been newspaper
18· articles that have been published, and then there's
19· certain things that have been released on COPA's
20· website.
21· · · · · · · · ·Have you reviewed any of the
22· materials that has been available to the public
23· and has been released on COPA's website?
24· · · · A.· · No.

·1· conclusions.· I'm trying to figure out if you've
·2· seen the conclusions.
·3· · · · A.· · Right.
·4· · · · Q.· · And have you seen the conclusions from
·5· COPA?
·6· · · · A.· · Again, let me repeat.· I read what was
·7· in the public domain by the newspapers.
·8· · · · Q.· · Okay.· To get to the heart of the
·9· conclusions, COPA determined the December 26,
10· '15 -- 2015 shooting to be unjustified as to Bettie
11· Jones and Quintonio LeGrier.
12· · · · · · · · ·You were aware of that, correct?
13· · · · A.· · Correct.
14· · · · Q.· · Okay.· And as of March 22nd of 2018,
15· Superintendent Eddie Johnson issued a non16· concurrence letter.
17· · · · · · · · ·Are you aware of that?
18· · · · A.· · Correct.
19· · · · Q.· · Okay.· And have you seen his 11-page
20· letter?
21· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection; asked and answered.
22· BY MR. ROGERS:
23· · · · Q.· · You can answer.
24· · · · THE COURT:· Answer it.· Answer over

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·1· objection, sir.
·2· · · · THE WITNESS:· I have not seen his letter.
·3· BY MR. ROGERS:
·4· · · · Q.· · Okay.· So you've only reviewed what's
·5· reported in the newspapers about it; is that
·6· correct?
·7· · · · A.· · Again, I'm trying to abide by the
·8· spirit.· I've not only -- I've not only not seen
·9· that, but any of the underlying material or
10· anything related to any -- his judgment, their
11· judgment because I'm not accessing that information.
12· · · · Q.· · Okay.· All right.· Okay.· Let's back up
13· a little bit and talk about the creation of COPA.
14· Because, as I understand it, you were involved in
15· recognizing a need to create -16· · · · A.· · Um-hmm.
17· · · · Q.· · -- the COPA.· Is that correct?
18· · · · A.· · Correct.
19· · · · Q.· · Okay.· And I pulled some information
20· just to give us some context.
21· · · · A.· · Okay.
22· · · · Q.· · You -- you've made several public
23· statements about the police culture, about the
24· code of silence, about the thin blue line.

·1· gave a public statement -- and I'll give a copy to
·2· your attorney as Exhibit 1.· Here's one for you.
·3· · · · · · · · ·You issued an op ed piece where
·4· you -·5· · · · A.· · Um-hmm.
·6· · · · Q.· · -- in essence said you own the problem
·7· of police brutality -·8· · · · A.· · Um-hmm.
·9· · · · Q.· · -- correct?
10· · · · A.· · I remember seeing this, but -- and -11· or reviewed it.· I think what I said is I own the
12· problem of fixing it.
13· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Feel free -14· · · · A.· · Okay.
15· · · · Q.· · I'm not trying to ambush you.· Feel
16· free to take a look at it.· And, again, that's the
17· title of it.
18· · · · A.· · It says, I own the problems, and I'll
19· fix it.· So that's as I see it.
20· · · · Q.· · All right.· And you recognized from
21· a contextual standpoint this is a defining moment
22· in Chicago following the release of the Laquan
23· McDonald video, correct?
24· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection to form.

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·1· · · · · · · · ·You acknowledge that, correct?
·2· · · · A.· · Yes.
·3· · · · Q.· · All right.· And I take it everything
·4· you said publicly you stand by, correct?
·5· · · · A.· · Um-hmm.· Within the whole context of
·6· what I said.
·7· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Is that a yes, you do stand by
·8· it?
·9· · · · A.· · Yes.· Within the whole context of -10· · · · Q.· · You got a bunch of lawyers watching.
11· · · · THE COURT:· Well, here's the thing.· When you
12· say "um-hmm" -13· · · · THE WITNESS:· I -- I got -- I apologize, your
14· Honor.
15· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· -- he has a hard time taking
16· it down.· Everybody else is fine with it but the
17· court reporter.
18· · · · THE WITNESS:· Yes.
19· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Okay.
20· · · · THE WITNESS:· Thank you.· I apologize.
21· BY MR. ROGERS:
22· · · · Q.· · No problem.· Okay.
23· · · · · · · · ·On -- as an example, I'll mark this
24· as Exhibit No. 1 for identification.· You -- you

·1· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· You can answer over objection
·2· if you can.
·3· · · · THE WITNESS:· To -·4· · · · THE COURT:· Answer over objection if you can.
·5· · · · · · · · ·That's the pro- -- here -- here -·6· here's the process.· They're going to object.
·7· You'll answer over the objection.· We'll address it
·8· later.· The only ones you don't answer if there's
·9· claims of privilege.
10· · · · THE WITNESS:· Well, to give kind of a
11· overview, I mean, you can go back to the Metcalf
12· report in the '70s or other incidents in Chicago's
13· history.· And I saw this as a moment and a kind of
14· an inflection point where the City of Chicago
15· needed to do a series of things to, in my view,
16· wholesale make sure there was the type of training,
17· technology, investments, oversight, accountability,
18· transparency where all the structures, all the
19· changes needed to, going forward, make sure that
20· there's the type of oversight and the type of
21· accountability.
22· · · · · · · · ·And the City of Chicago, while in
23· past had done certain things, but never fully got
24· kind of root and all to fixing, and also adjusting

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·1· a set of systems.
·2· · · · · · · · ·And since that time, you know,
·3· whether it's a body camera for every officer, a new
·4· video release transparency policy, new training as
·5· it relates to mental health, deescalation, COPA
·6· itself as a body, a series of things that we have
·7· done and continue to do to make sure that the -·8· there's a level of accountability, support for the
·9· highest professional standards, and oversight and
10· transparency to make sure that our officers have
11· what they need and the public has what they need,
12· that type of trust.· So that's in the context of
13· what I was trying to do -14· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Okay.
15· · · · THE WITNESS:· -- and say here.
16· BY MR. ROGERS:
17· · · · Q.· · What we've marked as Exhibit 1, I
18· believe, is something you or -- you prepared and
19· presented as your op ed, meaning statements that
20· are attributable to you.
21· · · · A.· · Um-hmm.
22· · · · Q.· · Take a look at it and tell me if that's
23· accurate.
24· · · · A.· · (Reviewing exhibit.)

·1· · · · MR. ROGERS:· 1.
·2· · · · THE COURT:· Okay.· We'll mark that as Exhibit
·3· 1.
·4· · · · · · · · ·Counsel, you keep the one that's
·5· marked up.
·6· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Um-hmm.
·7· BY MR. ROGERS:
·8· · · · Q.· · Again, my -- my questions right now
·9· are really contextual because these are a few
10· statements that were made publicly that preceded
11· by a matter of weeks this shooting.
12· · · · A.· · Um-hmm.
13· · · · Q.· · In this statement, again, you say this
14· is -- "Chicago is facing a defining moment on the
15· issues of crime and policing and the even larger
16· issues of truth and justice."· Correct?
17· · · · A.· · Correct.
18· · · · Q.· · Okay.· You say, "We need to determine
19· what to do differently to ensure that incidents
20· like this don't happen again."· True?
21· · · · A.· · Correct.
22· · · · Q.· · Okay.· And further on in the document
23· at the second page, you -- at the top, you say,
24· quote, "Supervision and leadership at every level

Page 19

Page 21

·1· · · · · · · · ·Okay.
·2· · · · Q.· · Exhibit 1 was retrieved from a
·3· newspaper.· It's presented as an op ed piece. I
·4· just need you to confirm that that is, in fact, an
·5· op ed that you prepared.
·6· · · · A.· · Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· · Okay.
·8· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· May I interject for a second?
·9· · · · · · · · ·Mayor, you marked up -- that's an
10· exhibit that's going to stay with the court
11· reporter.· It's part of the court record.· So
12· whatever notations you have on that, future
13· exhibits, just be aware they're going to stay part
14· of the record.
15· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Is there a clean one we can
16· substitute instead of that one?
17· · · · THE WITNESS:· All I did was blue checks.
18· That's all.
19· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· That's okay.
20· · · · THE WITNESS:· Here.
21· · · · THE COURT:· Okay.· So we will -22· · · · THE WITNESS:· Here.
23· · · · THE COURT:· -- put the clean one in the
24· record marked as -- what -- what exhibit was that?

·1· of the police department and the oversight agencies
·2· should have come -- should have come into play."
·3· And that's in the context of what happened -·4· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Where -- where are you?
·5· · · · THE WITNESS:· He's up here.
·6· BY MR. ROGERS:
·7· · · · Q.· · The second sentence.
·8· · · · · · · · ·That was relating to the context of
·9· the release of the video -10· · · · A.· · Um-hmm.
11· · · · Q.· · -- relating to Laquan McDonald?
12· · · · A.· · Correct.
13· · · · Q.· · Okay.
14· · · · A.· · Yeah.· I mean, the intervening
15· paragraph also talks about the lion's share
16· of the officers do their job every day.
17· · · · Q.· · Exactly.
18· · · · A.· · And they do it well.
19· · · · Q.· · That's right.
20· · · · A.· · And then -21· · · · Q.· · That's right.
22· · · · A.· · -- we're talking about a small number
23· of officers.
24· · · · Q.· · Right.

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·1· · · · A.· · The paragraph that was skipped.
·2· · · · MR. KENNEDY:· Move to strike everything after
·3· "correct" as nonresponsive.
·4· · · · MR. SISKEL:· We would object, your Honor.
·5· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Okay.· Please continue.
·6· BY MR. ROGERS:
·7· · · · Q.· · I'm not trying to take you through
·8· every sentence there because we don't -- I don't
·9· want to waste your time with that.
10· · · · · · · · ·But in the last paragraph on the
11· second page, you say, "I know the history of
12· police-community relations in Chicago."
13· · · · · · · · ·What were you referring to in that
14· regard in terms of knowing that history?
15· · · · A.· · It comes right afterwards if you read
16· on.· I don't -17· · · · Q.· · Is it -18· · · · A.· · In the -- as I just said earlier,
19· Larry, I would say it also talks about -- as I
20· said, there was a Mat- -- Metcalf report.
21· There's -- so the next sentence goes on and talks
22· about Jon Burge -23· · · · Q.· · Um-hmm.
24· · · · A.· · -- and the role I played as Mayor in
Page 23

·1· that.
·2· · · · · · · · ·So there are other moments in time
·3· in history.· My view, though, is to look forward
·4· as you -- as this piece concludes, what are the
·5· actions we're going to take so we don't do
·6· individual things.· As you know, IPRA came out of
·7· Internal Affairs, but it didn't accomplish its goal.
·8· · · · · · · · ·So whether it's COPA, body cameras,
·9· deescalation training, mental health training,
10· releasing of a video, just to name a few items, is
11· to make wholesale reforms, not one reform and feel
12· like we're done with what we have to do to make
13· sure that there's accountability, transparency,
14· oversight, and support for the officers to achieve
15· the highest professional standards.
16· · · · Q.· · You mentioned in your answer that IPRA
17· came out of the department in essence, correct?
18· · · · A.· · Going back years.
19· · · · Q.· · Right.
20· · · · A.· · IPRA was an outgrowth of Internal
21· Affairs, and COPA is a wholesale change of that.
22· · · · Q.· · Right.
23· · · · A.· · IPRA, that is.
24· · · · Q.· · When you say "COPA's a wholesale

Page 24
·1· change" from the days when IPRA came out of

·2· Internal Affairs, what do you mean?
·3· · · · A.· · Well, part of the -- even before this
·4· op ed, if I'm not mistaken, and before the speech
·5· that you earlier referred to, I put a task force
·6· together made up of a wide range of group of people
·7· and citizens from the City of Chicago that have -·8· I don't know -- I think I would describe as
·9· slightly as a blueprint.
10· · · · · · · · ·One of the suggestions is reforming
11· IPRA.· It's not just a new name.· It's more than
12· that.· And there's different type of personnel,
13· different type of training to that personnel,
14· different type of support.· I mean, I can't go
15· through all -- in the -- in the interest of brevity.
16· But it's more than just -- obviously, the goal is
17· to make it more than a name, and even the process
18· associated, which you earlier discussed, has
19· changed.
20· · · · Q.· · Right.
21· · · · · · · · ·Would it be fair to summarize one of
22· the primary objectives of the creation of COPA was
23· to create an independent entity from the department?
24· · · · A.· · That was one of the things, yes.· That
Page 25
·1· was probably the -- yeah, I'd say the major thrust.

·2· But that -·3· · · · Q.· · Yeah.· Okay.
·4· · · · A.· · -- was what IPRA was supposed to be.
·5· But it -- and so this would give it some more
·6· strength and vitality to achieve that independence
·7· and the oversight.
·8· · · · · · · · ·And then there's a whole different
·9· process that even exists between that, the
10· Superintendent, and the Police Board, which is
11· different than existed before.· There's a lot of
12· different layers.
13· · · · Q.· · Sure.
14· · · · A.· · That layers be -- or I shouldn't say
15· layers.· Steps to ensure the -- not only the
16· independence, but the veracity of the whole
17· process.
18· · · · Q.· · Okay.· So, again -- and I don't mean
19· to -- to describe the -- the changes in COPA in
20· their totality.· But two of the primary objectives
21· were independence from the police department, true?
22· That was one of the -- one of the primary objectives?
23· · · · A.· · Correct.
24· · · · Q.· · And secondly, to have a process that

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·1· had integrity and one that the public could trust,
·2· true?
·3· · · · A.· · This is not to be argumentative, but
·4· COPA's one step.· There's the Superintendent's
·5· review of their judgment.· And then there's a
·6· process, and it involved the Police Board.· So I
·7· see them in a totality rather than -- it's a step
·8· in an overall piece that I would say.· And so just
·9· to pull -- and, again, this is more -- since you're
10· asking context, I don't want to say more than
11· you're asking for.
12· · · · · · · · ·The independence is one piece.· The
13· veracity of the process is really the main thrust
14· of the whole effort, meaning from their independent
15· investigation to the Superintendent's judgment to
16· then the Police Board.· And so that step by step is
17· the totality of the over independence, not just one
18· entity.
19· · · · Q.· · Sure.· I appreciate that.
20· · · · · · · · ·There are steps after COPA concludes
21· its investigations and reaches its findings and
22· makes its recommendations that include the
23· Superintendent and then the Police Board.· That's
24· what you're referring to, true?

Page 28
·1· BY MR. ROGERS:
·2· · · · Q.· · Well, the distinction I'm making with
·3· COPA is because COPA was a development and a change
·4· from IPRA because IPRA grew out of Internal Affairs
·5· and out of the department.· COPA was created to be
·6· an independent investigating entity, correct?
·7· · · · A.· · Yes.· And it's not -- the problem with
·8· IPRA was and wasn't that it grew out of Internal
·9· Affairs.· There were questions about all the work,
10· and that's why we've hired new people, did new
11· training at COPA, new leadership at COPA as
12· recently as just the other day.· But also the steps
13· involved -- so there were not just more steps,
14· there were checks and balances in the process to
15· give the entire review its -- the independence that
16· was needed and oversight by citizens.
17· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Were you intimately involved in
18· the development of COPA and the creation of this
19· independent, with a capital I, entity?
20· · · · A.· · Intimately- -- I made sure it happened
21· because it was a recommendation of the task force.
22· There was a lot of other people that were much more
23· intimately involved.· But to push to get it done,
24· yes --

Page 27

·1· · · · A.· · Um-hmm.· And I think that -- this is by
·2· memory, Larry, but I would also say that I think
·3· that that was not just COPA, but that was where
·4· some of the changes, in fact, that the task force
·5· themselves had recommended that have now been
·6· implemented and put up as a series of steps to give
·7· the whole effort of review its independence.
·8· · · · Q.· · My questions about COPA, though, that
·9· component of the process, are accurate, meaning
10· that the goal of COPA is to have an independent
11· investigation into police-involved shootings as one
12· type of incident, true?
13· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection; asked and answered.
14· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Answer over objection.· We'll
15· address it later.
16· · · · THE WITNESS:· If you're try- -- my -- as
17· the Mayor adopting the changes and the reforms
18· suggested by the task force was to have every step
19· change so it would be -- I hate to say it this
20· way -- big capital I, independence, not one piece
21· of it being independent.
22· · · · · · · · ·But COPA was a key component of it,
23· like the Police Board and like the Superintendent.
24

Page 29

·1· · · · Q.· · Okay.
·2· · · · A.· · -- and making sure that we didn't
·3· falter in implementing the task force's
·4· recommendations and suggestions.
·5· · · · Q.· · Okay.· The entity of COPA was
·6· memorialized by municipal code ordinance, correct?
·7· · · · A.· · By the City Council?
·8· · · · Q.· · Yes.
·9· · · · A.· · Yes.
10· · · · Q.· · Okay.· And that was an ordinance that
11· you pushed to be passed at City Council, true?
12· · · · A.· · Yes.· With -13· · · · Q.· · Go ahead.
14· · · · A.· · With all the other changes that you and
15· I have now thoroughly discussing.
16· · · · Q.· · Yes.
17· · · · A.· · Meaning there was not only COPA, but
18· there was also what the Superintendent's role would
19· be and then what the Police Board's role would be,
20· which are all new in conjunction and consistent and
21· at the -- if I'm -- this is by memory, at the same
22· time were adopted.
23· · · · Q.· · Right.· I'm going to show you in a
24· moment a copy of the COPA ordinance that I think

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·1· reflects what you're describing.
·2· · · · A.· · Okay.
·3· · · · Q.· · Okay.· So I'm not trying to -·4· · · · A.· · I got it.
·5· · · · Q.· · -- to compartmentalize it or limit it.
·6· I'm just trying to focus it on the different
·7· components in the -- in the process.
·8· · · · · · · · ·We talked about a December 6 op ed
·9· that you produced and that you presented to the
10· newspapers.
11· · · · · · · · ·Let me show you what we've marked as
12· Exhibit No. 2 for identification.
13· · · · · · · · ·It is a December 9th, 2015 speech
14· that you gave to City Council.
15· · · · A.· · Um-hmm.
16· · · · Q.· · You do recall giving a speech to City
17· Council, correct?
18· · · · A.· · Yes, I do.
19· · · · Q.· · You entitled it Justice, Culture, and
20· Community; is that correct?
21· · · · A.· · Yes.
22· · · · Q.· · It was presented on Wednesday,
23· December 9th of 2015, correct?
24· · · · A.· · Yes.

·1· true?
·2· · · · A.· · That would be just a guess if I was
·3· referring just to IPRA.· So -·4· · · · Q.· · Okay.
·5· · · · A.· · -- I don't know.
·6· · · · Q.· · Sure.
·7· · · · A.· · I mean, I -- without taking the time
·8· to reread the whole speech, I don't -- that area,
·9· it -- obviously, it was one of the oversights.· So
10· I think it would go in there, yes, sir.
11· · · · Q.· · Okay.· OPRA would be -- strike that.
12· · · · A.· · I got it.
13· · · · Q.· · OPRA?· IPRA would be at least one -14· · · · A.· · Can we not strike that when you guys
15· edit this?
16· · · · THE COURT:· We want Oprah as our President
17· Oprah.
18· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Right.
19· BY MR. ROGERS:
20· · · · Q.· · IPRA would be one of the oversight
21· agencies that you were referring to as having
22· failed, true?
23· · · · A.· · Okay.
24· · · · Q.· · True?

Page 31
Page 33
·1· · · · Q.· · And, again, you described this.· We -·1· · · · A.· · Yes.
·2· and I'll quote you.· "We are here today because
·2· · · · Q.· · Okay.· You state on the second page

·3· Chicago is facing a defining moment on the issue of

·3· of Exhibit 2 in the second to the last paragraph,
·4· "We cannot ignore or excuse wrongful behavior
·5· truth, justice, and race."
·5· especially when it costs the life of another.
·6· · · · · · · · ·That was the -- a component of your
·6· Police are not protecting the city when they see
·7· introduction to your remarks, correct?
·7· something and then say nothing."· Correct?
·8· · · · A.· · Yes.
·8· · · · A.· · Is that the paragraph that starts with,
·9· · · · Q.· · In the remarks, you acknowledge that
·9· "My uncle was a police sergeant here in Chicago"?
10· the October 20th, 2014 incident should never have
10· · · · Q.· · It is.
11· happened, supervision and leadership in the police 11· · · · A.· · Okay.
12· department and the oversight agencies that were in 12· · · · · · · · ·(Reviewing exhibit.)
13· place failed, true?
13· · · · · · · · ·That's what it says.
14· · · · A.· · I don't know where you're reading.
14· · · · Q.· · Okay.· All right.· And, again, you
15· · · · Q.· · I'm reading -15· stand by your statements publicly.· I just
16· · · · A.· · Yeah.
16· identified a few.· But everything you stated in
17· · · · Q.· · -- it's about five paragraphs down
17· your -- your remarks and as contained in Exhibit 2
18· beginning with, "What happened on October 20th,
18· you stand by, true?
19· 2014 ..."· Do you see that?
19· · · · A.· · Um-hmm.· Yes, I do.· I'm sorry.
20· · · · A.· · I see it.
20· · · · Q.· · That's okay.
21· · · · Q.· · The supervision and leadership in the
21· · · · A.· · Yes.
22· department is what you were deeming to have failed 22· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Let me show you what we've
23· as well as the oversight agencies, and that
23· marked as Exhibit -- oops, excuse me -- 3 for
24· oversight agency reference is referring to IPRA,
24· identification.
·4· crime and policing and the even larger issue of

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·1· · · · · · · · ·Here's a copy to your attorney.

Page 36

·1· interrupt.· This could have gone a lot faster
·2· because these materials were specifically brought

·2· · · · · · · · ·This relates specifically to the
·3· Bettie Jones incident.· And it -- if you look at
·4· the bottom of the second page of Exhibit 3, it has
·5· a date of December 29th, 2015 at 7:25 a.m.
·6· · · · A.· · Oh.· I'm looking at -- it says page 1
·7· on every page.
·8· · · · Q.· · Okay.· The second physical page of the
·9· exhibit.
10· · · · A.· · Okay.· I follow.

·3· up innumerable times during trial that this was
·4· what you were going to be questioned on.
·5· · · · THE WITNESS:· Okay.
·6· · · · THE COURT:· So if you're just seeing it, take
·7· your time.
·8· · · · THE WITNESS:· Okay.
·9· · · · THE COURT:· This was brought up many times.
10· · · · THE WITNESS:· I will -- if I can, this is, I

11· · · · Q.· · If you look at the bottom, just to give

11· think, relevant because everything we're doing is
12· trying to create context around it.
13· text communications between Mayor Rahm Emanuel and 13· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Sure.
14· Adam Collins, 12/29/15 at 7:25 a.m.
14· · · · THE WITNESS:· I mean, this is one communication
15· · · · · · · · ·Do you see that?
15· of a series and multiple phone calls I'm making
16· · · · A.· · Yes, I see that.
16· from Cuba and multiple communications to John -17· · · · Q.· · Okay.· And there are obviously a
17· Acting Superintendent John Escalante, other staff
18· variety of text messages -- messages that were
18· members.· So it's one email of -- from telephone to
19· sent.· The one I'd like to focus on here says -- it
19· text, multiple communications when you're out of
12· you a com- -- context, this was produced to us as

20· seems to be some communication about some of the
21· stories that were in the press about the shooting
22· incident, just to give you context.· And, again,
23· feel free to read it.
24· · · · · · · · ·Then you say -- it says, "CT has an

20· the country trying to get your -- talk about trying
21· to get context, trying to get feel to what's
22· happening at the moment in which I'm out of the
23· country.
24

Page 35

·1· editorial that the shootings will be the first test
·2· of the commitment to reform, though they also note
·3· the 30-day policy and the City deescalation -- or
·4· the CIT/deescalation review.· Not good.· Not bad."
·5· · · · · · · · ·Do you see that?
·6· · · · A.· · Um-hmm.
·7· · · · Q.· · Is that a yes?
·8· · · · A.· · I'm sorry.· I apologize.
·9· · · · Q.· · That's okay.
10· · · · A.· · Yes.
11· · · · Q.· · The first shootings -- strike that.
12· · · · · · · · ·The shootings they're referring to
13· as the first test of the commitment to reform are
14· the shootings of Bettie Jones and Quintonio
15· LeGrier, true?
16· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection; calls for speculation,
17· lack of foundation.
18· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Well, this is -- these are his -19· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Well, he can answer over the -20· No.· If you can answer it.· Your objection -21· · · · THE WITNESS:· Because I -- you know, this
22· is -- I'm just seeing this again for the first time
23· and looking at the date.· I mean -24· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· You know, I'm going to

Page 37

·1· BY MR. ROGERS:
·2· · · · Q.· · Sure.· I tried to preface that in
·3· my question.
·4· · · · A.· · Um-hmm.
·5· · · · Q.· · I can't give you all of those
·6· communications because of time constraints.
·7· · · · A.· · I understand that.
·8· · · · Q.· · And I do want to be fair to you.
·9· · · · · · · · ·But the shootings that are
10· referenced are not specifically described here
11· by ref- -- by way of date.
12· · · · A.· · As it -- by way of date and by way of
13· the fact that the date and the timing which is
14· referred, it is the situ- -- the case we're talking
15· about.
16· · · · Q.· · Okay.· So, again, Exhibit -17· · · · A.· · Page 2.
18· · · · Q.· · -- Exhibit 3, page 2 -19· · · · A.· · Oh, Exhibit 3.· I'm sorry.· Yeah.
20· · · · Q.· · -- of Exhibit 3 -21· · · · A.· · Um-hmm.
22· · · · Q.· · -- wherein it states, "CT has an
23· editorial that the shootings will be the first
24· test of the commitment to reform."· Those shootings

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·1· they're referencing are the shooting of Bettie
·2· Jones and Quintonio LeGrier, true?
·3· · · · A.· · Given the date and given the time, it's
·4· a small leap, but, yes, of faith.
·5· · · · · · · · ·And, again, I want to state this is
·6· one communication in a lot of other communication
·7· by phone and conversation.· But yes.
·8· · · · Q.· · And the commitment to reform that
·9· they're referencing is the commitment to reform
10· you had described in some of the statements that
11· we've discussed earlier in Exhibits 1 and 2, both
12· your December 6th op ed piece as well as your
13· December 9th, 2015 presentation to City Council
14· where you talked about the need for reform, true?
15· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection to form.
16· BY MR. ROGERS:
17· · · · Q.· · You may answer.
18· · · · THE COURT:· Answer over objection.
19· · · · THE WITNESS:· I don't have the Sun-Times
20· editorial in front of me, so I don't know what
21· they're talking about, the reforms.
22· · · · · · · · ·I do -- I think it's important -23· I don't know the reforms the Sun-Times is talking
24· about.· I don't have that piece.· I do know what

Page 40

·1· that the shootings of Quintonio LeGrier and Bettie
·2· Jones and how that will be investigated were
·3· recognized as and described as the first test of
·4· this commitment to reform that you had described
·5· in other presentations both by op ed and oral
·6· presentation to City Council; is that fair?
·7· · · · A.· · That is Adam's summary of the Sun-Times
·8· editorial.
·9· · · · Q.· · Okay.· One of the de- -- one of the
10· commitments to reform that you've made was to
11· reevaluate IPRA.· And we know now that what came
12· out of that was the creation of COPA, true?
13· · · · A.· · Again, Larry, I'm -- Larry, I'm not
14· trying to be argumentative.· COPA and a whole new
15· process as relates to COPA all the way through to
16· the Police Board, correct.
17· · · · Q.· · I accept that.· Okay.
18· · · · A.· · I'll only say this -- you didn't ask
19· this, but no one of these reforms stand on their
20· own.· If anything, I'd like to say that my -- when
21· Chicago has dealt with instances in the past, you
22· would just do a single shot when it was clear.· If
23· you look at my speech, you look at my op ed,
24· there's a whole series of things.· So when I keep

Page 39

Page 41

·1· I -- that prior to that op ed, I had already put

·1· coming back to COPA and a different process going
·2· a task force in place.· I already gave a speech.
·2· through the Police Board, it's to know that our
·3· We already made some changes, and I think I've
·3· changes in oversight and transparency and training
·4· detailed already in other questions.· And we're not
·4· is looking afresh at everything, and it's wholesale,
·5· stopping, which is whether it's every officer a
·5· because if you only think that one thing is going
·6· year had a schedule and has a body camera trained,
·6· to achieve what you need, we would actually, going
·7· whether it's knowing that every officer know -·7· all the way back to Ralph Metcalf, not achieve what
·8· can -- now has been trained, not just officer, 911,
·8· we need to do.
·9· EMT on mental health calls, deescalation policy,
·9· · · · Q.· · I don't -- I haven't been given the
10· use of force policy, transparency.· So a whole set
10· time to talk -- or the chance to talk to you about
11· of things.
11· everything.· Just a few things.· So I'm trying to
12· · · · · · · · ·And as recently as just two days ago
12· stay within the confines.
13· where I announced a new director of COPA from a
13· · · · A.· · Lucky me.
14· citizens board of 20 religious, community, civic14· · · · Q.· · We can -- I'm happy to depose you a
15· minded individuals, their recommendation.
15· couple of times.
16· · · · · · · · ·So not having the Sun-Times that
16· · · · A.· · Great.
17· Adam's talking about and not looking at the
17· · · · Q.· · All right.· Let me show you what we'll
18· editorial itself, there is a series of things we
18· mark as Exhibit 4.
19· were doing from the task force forward that still
19· · · · A.· · Do you want me to close this?
20· 18, 19 months later we're implementing today,
20· · · · Q.· · Yes.
21· tomorrow, and forward.
21· · · · A.· · Okay.
22· BY MR. ROGERS:
22· · · · Q.· · Exhibit 4 is a newspaper article from
23· · · · Q.· · My point in the question is simply that
23· December 28th of 2015 describing this specific
24· the communications are acknowledging and recognizing 24· incident, and it attributes a couple of quotes to

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·1· you that I wanted to ask you about.

·1· · · · A.· · That's 911.
·2· · · · A.· · Thank you.
·2· · · · Q.· · Right.
·3· · · · Q.· · I'm sorry.· Let me give you this copy.
·3· · · · A.· · EMT being sometimes firefighters and
·4· There you go.
·4· EMTs show up to certain calls.
·5· · · · A.· · Thanks.
·5· · · · Q.· · Okay.
·6· · · · Q.· · Sure.
·6· · · · A.· · So everybody -- there was a -- it's
·7· · · · · · · · ·The second page, the second to last
·7· larger than just police officers is what I'm trying
·8· paragraph -·8· to say.
·9· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Do you have another copy?
·9· · · · Q.· · Okay.
10· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Oh, I'm sorry.· Yes.
10· · · · A.· · But, yes, OEMC, 911.
11· BY MR. ROGERS:
11· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· We're throwing a lot of
12· · · · Q.· · It says, "Anytime an officer uses
12· acronyms around.· EMTs are emergency -13· force, the public deserves answers, and regardless
13· · · · THE WITNESS:· Emergency man- -- emergency -14· of the circumstances, we all grieve anytime there's
14· · · · THE COURT:· -- medical technicians?
15· a loss of life in our city."
15· · · · THE WITNESS:· -- medical technicians, yeah.
16· · · · · · · · ·I take it you stand by that
16· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· COPA is the Civilian -17· statement, true?
17· · · · THE WITNESS:· OEM- -18· · · · A.· · Yes.
18· · · · THE COURT:· -- Oversight Police Accountability?
19· · · · Q.· · Okay.· The last paragraph, you state,
19· · · · THE WITNESS:· COPA is Civilian Oversight of
20· "Late -- it states, "Late Sunday, Mr. Emanuel
20· Police Accountability.
21· called on the police department and the Independent 21· · · · · · · · ·OEMC is the Office of Emergency
22· Police Review Authority, which investigates
22· Management Center with 911 and 311 based there
23· shootings like this one, to immediately review
23· and other things.
24· 'crisis intervention team' training that guides
24· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· I think COPA is the Citizen
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·1· officers on how to handle calls involving mental
·2· health crises and determine how to fix deficiencies
·3· in that training."
·4· · · · · · · · ·Do you see that?
·5· · · · A.· · I do.
·6· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Crisis intervention team
·7· training was an issue you associated with the
·8· events of December 26, 2015, true?
·9· · · · A.· · As I said, I think, to another
10· question, it would -- part of our wholesale
11· set of actions -- and, again, we're not done -- was
12· not only police officers, but EMT and including 911
13· callers, because an officer's impression of a
14· moment is made by the phone call he or she gets
15· over the radio from 911, gives them a mental
16· context, and, therefore, it was not just police
17· officers, it was also 911 and firefighters -- or
18· EMT, I apologize, to know how to distinguish mental
19· health from another type of call coming over 911
20· that they respond to with frequency.
21· · · · Q.· · You said -22· · · · A.· · With some frequency.
23· · · · Q.· · You said "EMT."· I think you're
24· referring to OEMC call takers and dispatchers?

·1· Office of Police Accountability.
·2· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Civilian Office.
·3· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· Civilian Office.
·4· BY MR. ROGERS:
·5· · · · Q.· · Okay.· With respect to this particular
·6· incident, do you -- were you made aware that there
·7· were issues surrounding the calls that had been
·8· made by Quintonio LeGrier and Antonio LeGrier to
·9· 911 and the response from OEMC personnel?
10· · · · A.· · Say that again, Larry.· I'm trying to
11· understand what you're trying to get to.
12· · · · Q.· · Do you understand the factual scenario
13· of what happened with the telephone calls from
14· Quintonio LeGrier to 911?
15· · · · A.· · I have some knowledge of it.· I may
16· not -- probably not as full as yours, but some
17· knowledge.
18· · · · Q.· · Sure.
19· · · · · · · · ·From a factual standpoint, in
20· summary, Quintonio LeGrier called on three
21· occasions to 911 requesting the assistance of
22· police officers.· And then a fourth call was made
23· by Antonio LeGrier, his father.· And that fourth
24· call is what triggered the police officers who

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·1· responded, and the officers that responded were not ·1· we wanted to make sure all points in a call
·2· receives the type of sens- -- I don't want to
·2· aware that the young man apparently had called.
·3· · · · · · · · ·Did you understand that factually or

·3· mean -- sensitivity awareness training, which, in

·4· no?

·4· fact, a lot of the independent groups that work on

·5· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection to the form.

·5· this issue thought it was appropriate that we

·6· · · · THE COURT:· You can answer it.

·6· looked at it from beginning to end.

·7· · · · THE WITNESS:· I can't remember.

·7· · · · Q.· · Exhibit 4, which I mentioned a moment

·8· BY MR. ROGERS:

·8· ago, and I gave you some context, it specifically

·9· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Fair enough.

·9· mentions a quote from you about the need to look at

10· · · · · · · · ·Here's where I'm going with it.

10· and review "crisis intervention team" training that

11· From a structural standpoint, is OEMC, those

11· guides officers on how to handle calls involving

12· who take calls and dispatch officers, is that

12· mental health crises.

13· controlled by the Chicago Police Department?

13· · · · · · · · ·Was that a request that you made in

14· · · · A.· · It's a separate entity, and there's 911

14· response to your understanding of what happened in

15· dispatchers there and phone takers.

15· the communications between Quintonio and Antonio

16· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Have there ever been suggestions

16· LeGrier and OEMC personnel?

17· made to you or other personnel in the City that the

17· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection to form.

18· Chicago Police Department have a more direct

18· · · · THE COURT:· Answer over the objection.

19· control and impact over how O- -- how calls are

19· · · · THE WITNESS:· Oh, okay.

20· handled to OEMC personnel and then dispatched to 20· · · · THE COURT:· If you can.
21· · · · THE WITNESS:· I don't -- like I'd be -21· police officers?
22· · · · A.· · On a first blush, the answer is no.

22· Larry, I'd be just guessing if -- what was the

23· But that doesn't -- I don't -- it's not been a --

23· impetus.· I mean, this is not to talk about my

24· of all the things we've tried to do that I've

24· record, but, you know, I've worked on mental health
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·1· spelled out in other answers to other questions, I
·2· don't remember if either in the task force or -·3· I'd have to go review any material.
·4· · · · · · · · ·But I know that releasing videotape,

·1· issues going back to a mental health parity.· It
·2· would be just a guess if I made it.· But, obviously,
·3· it's one that we're sensitive to in the police -·4· in the city.
·5· the reforms of it for it to become COPA, the
·5· BY MR. ROGERS:
·6· process around it, the body cameras, et cetera.
·6· · · · Q.· · Did -- do -- are you aware of the
·7· Mental health training, deescalation training,
·7· fact that the OEMC personnel on this case were
·8· those have been paramount, and those are the ones
·8· disciplined for not triggering a crisis
·9· that we have moved on.· I'm not saying that that
·9· intervention team response to the calls that were
10· hasn't been recommended, but I don't remember it
10· made on the evening of December 26, 2015?
11· being paramount as something -- but that doesn't
11· · · · A.· · I don't remember specifically.
12· mean -- again, I want to say there could be people
12· · · · · · · · ·Do you want me to turn this over?
13· today working on that, but I don't remember that.
13· · · · Q.· · Yes.
14· · · · Q.· · Okay.· You do -- you do acknowledge
14· · · · A.· · Okay.
15· that as of December 26 of 2015 OEMC was separate 15· · · · Q.· · All right.· We've talked a lot about
16· from the police department, true?
16· COPA.· Let me give you a copy of the COPA
17· · · · A.· · Um-hmm.· Yes.
17· ordinance, which we'll mark as Exhibit 5.
18· · · · Q.· · And the police department did not have
18· · · · · · · · ·I'll give you a copy?
19· direct involvement in how calls were dispatched to 19· · · · A.· · This is the ordinance?
20· its officers and what information was gathered by
20· · · · Q.· · This is the ordinance as passed by the
21· OEMC personnel, true?
21· City Council.
22· · · · A.· · 911 and OEMC are separate entities.
22· · · · A.· · Um-hmm.
23· · · · · · · · ·I think what I would like to, if I
23· · · · Q.· · And I wanted to just go over the
24· could, add is that the training, while for officers
24· process that you've talked about.· Just -- I have

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·1· some questions about it, but I wanted to give it to
·2· you so you can review it to the extent you need to.
·3· · · · A.· · Do you want me to review it, or you're
·4· going to -·5· · · · Q.· · I'll point out some areas -·6· · · · A.· · Okay.
·7· · · · Q.· · -- to review.
·8· · · · · · · · ·First of all, have you reviewed it
·9· before, the COPA ordinance?
10· · · · A.· · For this -- for this moment?
11· · · · Q.· · At the time it was passed.
12· · · · A.· · There's -- I went over it with what was
13· then counsel, and I -- and legislative staff and
14· public safety staff stuff, but I haven't done it
15· since.
16· · · · Q.· · Did you provide some individual input
17· about what should be contained within it?
18· · · · A.· · I'd be guessing.· I'm sorry.
19· · · · Q.· · Okay.· COPA, again, is the Civilian
20· Office of Police Accountability, true?
21· · · · A.· · Um-hmm.· Yes.
22· · · · Q.· · COPA was created to replace IPRA, true?
23· · · · A.· · Yes.
24· · · · Q.· · COPA has a defined process for handling

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·1· Second from the bottom.
·2· · · · Q.· · Exhibit 6, which is, again, COPA's
·3· description of its jurisdiction, distinguishes from
·4· those things that are investigated by the Chicago
·5· Police Department's Bureau of Internal Affairs.
·6· · · · · · · · ·Do you see that?
·7· · · · A.· · On the right side of the page, yes.
·8· · · · Q.· · Right.
·9· · · · · · · · ·On the right side of the page, it
10· describes the jurisdiction of the Bureau of
11· Internal Affairs as looking at things like criminal
12· misconduct, theft of money or property, other
13· things within the department distinguished from
14· police-involved shootings and injury and death or
15· excessive force, true?
16· · · · A.· · Yes.
17· · · · Q.· · As I understand your earlier discussion,
18· you were stating that one of the goals of creating
19· COPA was to create something independent, with a
20· capital I, true?
21· · · · A.· · Yes, with all the other items that we
22· discussed.
23· · · · Q.· · With all the other items you discussed.
24· · · · A.· · All the other steps in the process.

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·1· investigations and it has a defined jurisdiction,
·2· correct?
·3· · · · A.· · Yes, it does.
·4· · · · Q.· · Okay.· And just to short-circuit that
·5· so you don't have to interpret it as much, I'll
·6· show you Exhibit 6, which is a copy from COPA's
·7· website that shows its jurisdiction.
·8· · · · A.· · Okay.
·9· · · · Q.· · COPA's website describes that COPA
10· investigates allegations of, and Exhibit 6 lists a
11· few things, one of which is death or serious bodily
12· injury in custody.
13· · · · · · · · ·Do you see that?
14· · · · A.· · Are you on the left side here?
15· · · · Q.· · Yes.
16· · · · A.· · Yes.· The third bullet down.
17· · · · Q.· · Right.
18· · · · · · · · ·And then excessive force.· Do you
19· see that?· The fifth bullet -20· · · · A.· · The fifth bullet down, yes.
21· · · · Q.· · Also patterns or practices of
22· misconduct.
23· · · · · · · · ·Do you see that it?
24· · · · A.· · The eighth -- or ninth one down.

·1· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Again, the context of that is
·2· the history of IPRA, which grew out of the Bureau
·3· of Internal Affairs, and concerns with the number
·4· of sustained findings over the course of years that
·5· IPRA was in place, true?
·6· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection to form.
·7· BY MR. ROGERS:
·8· · · · Q.· · I'll rephrase the question.
·9· · · · · · · · ·The creation of COPA grew out of
10· concern with IPRA growing out of the Bureau of
11· Internal Affairs and the history of it having very
12· few sustained findings with regard to police
13· investigations, true?
14· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Again, objection to form.
15· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· You can answer over objection
16· if you can.
17· · · · THE WITNESS:· Actually, one of the concerns
18· and the impetuses was, one, independence; two,
19· inconclusivity, meaning citizens or residents felt
20· like there was never a conclusion and police
21· officers always felt like they had a shadow over
22· their career, so ...
23· · · · · · · · ·And then third was also the sense
24· written about independence and -- that you've

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·1· described and has been described as independence.
·2· · · · · · · · ·So there was a lot of impetus behind
·3· not just IPRA growing out of Internal Affairs, but
·4· the robustness of the investigations, the time it
·5· took on investigations.· There was a whole host of
·6· concerns raised.· But one was not just making sure
·7· IPRA, but the -- in fact, we're kind of seeing the
·8· process has changed so that even when the
·9· Superintendent now has a decision -- or makes a
10· judgment, rather, not a decision, it's not the
11· final word.· And that changed from before.
12· BY MR. ROGERS:
13· · · · Q.· · And I'm going to talk to you about that
14· a little bit.· But Exhibit 2, which I gave you
15· earlier, which is a copy of your December 9th -16· · · · A.· · 2?
17· · · · Q.· · Yes.· It's a copy of your December 9th,
18· 2015 remarks to City Council.· In there you state,
19· quote -- you're talking about the task force -20· "They will look at the Bureau of Internal Affairs
21· at the police department, which investigates -22· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Can you just point out where
23· in -24· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Page 5, second paragraph.

·1· questions without showing you the basis of the
·2· questions.· Okay?· That's why I've tried to start
·3· with your statements.
·4· · · · A.· · Do you want me to put these down, turn
·5· them over?
·6· · · · Q.· · I want to go to the Exhibit -·7· · · · A.· · 5?
·8· · · · Q.· · -- 5, which is COPA's statute.
·9· · · · · · · · ·The mission of COPA is defined on
10· the second page of Exhibit 5.· And its purpose is
11· described as, quote, "The mission of the Civilian
12· Office of Police Account- -13· · · · A.· · Where -14· · · · Q.· · The last paragraph.
15· · · · A.· · Right here.· Okay.· Purpose.
16· · · · Q.· · The purpose of COPA is legislatively
17· created at 2-78-110, true?
18· · · · A.· · Right down -- right down here.
19· · · · Q.· · Yes.
20· · · · A.· · Right.· Okay.
21· · · · Q.· · And it states, quote, "The mission of
22· the Civilian Office of Police Accountability is to
23· provide a just and efficient means to fairly and
24· timely conduct investigations within its

Page 55

·1· BY MR. ROGERS:

Page 57

·1· jurisdiction, including investigations of alleged

·2· · · · Q.· · You state, "They will look at the

·2· police misconduct and to determine whether those
·3· Bureau of Internal Affairs at the police department,
·3· allegations are well founded, applying a
·4· which investigates corruption, and they will look
·4· preponderance of the evidence standard; to identify
·5· at the Independent Police Review Authority, which
·5· and address patterns of police misconduct; and,
·6· investigates police shootings and citizen complaints. ·6· based on information obtained through such
·7· · · · · · · · ·"They will look at IPRA's record
·7· investigations, to make policy recommendations to
·8· since it was created in 2007 and ask why, out of
·8· improve the Chicago Police Department and reduce
·9· hundreds of police shootings in the last eight
·9· incidents of police misconduct."
10· years, only a handful of them have led to any
10· · · · · · · · ·Do you see that?
11· charges."
11· · · · A.· · Yes, I do.
12· · · · · · · · ·Do you see that?
12· · · · Q.· · That's the purpose with which you
13· · · · A.· · Yes.
13· created COPA, true?
14· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Again, the context -- I'm
14· · · · A.· · I and the City Council, correct.
15· pointing out the context of your creation of COPA
15· · · · Q.· · The Chief Administrator of COPA is an
16· grew out of concern with IPRA's history of not -16· appointee of the Mayor, true?
17· out of hundreds of police shootings finding only a
17· · · · A.· · It's an appoint- -- I make a
18· handful of them leading to charges.· That was one
18· recommendation.· Yes, it's an appointee of
19· component of the creation of COPA, true?
20· · · · A.· · That was one component, correct.
21· · · · · · · · ·Do you want me to put that down?
22· · · · Q.· · Yes.
23· · · · A.· · Okay.
24· · · · Q.· · I want to -- I don't want to ask you

19· mine confirmed by the City Council.
20· · · · Q.· · When COPA was initially established,
21· the initial Chief Administrator was Sharon Fairley;
22· is that correct?
23· · · · A.· · Yes.
24· · · · Q.· · And after Sharon Fairley, there was

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·1· an interim Chief Administrator, a Patricia Banks,
·2· true?
·3· · · · A.· · Yes.
·4· · · · Q.· · And then as of, I believe, yesterday
·5· there's a new Chief Administrator by the name of
·6· Sidney Roberts, correct?
·7· · · · A.· · Nominated.· Not confirmed.
·8· · · · Q.· · Okay.· That was one of my questions.
·9· · · · A.· · Yes.
10· · · · Q.· · So she's been nominated, but not yet
11· confirmed?
12· · · · A.· · I put -- there's a committee of 20
13· people, citizens of different walks of life, all
14· part of the city; after, I think, three to four
15· months they came forward with the name. I
16· concurred.· I've now put it forward for the City
17· Council Committee on Public Safety to review, and
18· there will be -- if passed out of there, the entire
19· City Council will have a vote and discussion of her
20· credentials.
21· · · · Q.· · Okay.· And when is that scheduled, if
22· you know?
23· · · · A.· · Well, I just submitted the name.· I'm
24· not saying that it will follow this order.· But

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·1· · · · Q.· · Here.
·2· · · · A.· · Well, I've got (a), (b), (c) -- hold on
·3· one second.· Right here.
·4· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Right here.
·5· · · · THE WITNESS:· Okay.· I got it at page 4, not
·6· 3.· That's why I was confused.· I apologize.
·7· BY MR. ROGERS:
·8· · · · Q.· · No, no problem.
·9· · · · · · · · ·Just so we have a clear record, (l)
10· reads that -- and it's describing, you know, the
11· duties of the office and administrator.· It says,
12· quote, "To recommend to the Superintendent, with
13· respect to incidents within its jurisdiction,
14· appropriate disciplinary or other remedial action
15· against members of the police department found to
16· be in violation of any applicable police department
17· rules, including rules related to the duty to
18· provide truthful information regarding the
19· officer's own conduct and the conduct of others,
20· and the duty to report the misconduct of others.
21· Such remedial action may include, but is not
22· limited to, reassignment, additional training, or
23· other counseling."
24· · · · · · · · ·Do you see that?

Page 59

·1· normally they'll be dealing with it in the April
·2· City Council.· But it doesn't mean it will happen
·3· that way.· But it will -- without defining time, in
·4· short order, but it could be two City Councils.
·5· · · · · · · · ·But I've put the name forward.· My
·6· guess is the committee will move expeditiously
·7· based on the importance of the mission of COPA.
·8· · · · Q.· · Okay.
·9· · · · A.· · And the need for a full-time rather
10· than an acting director.
11· · · · Q.· · So currently the interim Chief
12· Administrator, Patricia Banks, is still acting;
13· is that correct?
14· · · · A.· · Yes.
15· · · · Q.· · Okay.· We talked a little bit about the
16· process, and I wanted to go over the process as is
17· described within the ordinance just so we're
18· operating with the same understanding.
19· · · · · · · · ·If you look at the third page of
20· Exhibit 5, under subsection (l), which is the
21· section defines the powers and duties of the office
22· and the Chief Administrator.
23· · · · · · · · ·Subsection (l).· Do you see that?
24· · · · A.· · I must not be --

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·1· · · · A.· · I do.
·2· · · · Q.· · Okay.· This is describing that the role
·3· of the Chief Administrator is to, once they conduct
·4· an investigation which is addressed at subparagraph
·5· (d) where it says "to conduct investigations," they
·6· then are to recommend to the Superintendent
·7· disciplinary or other remedial actions, true?
·8· · · · A.· · That's what it reads.
·9· · · · Q.· · Okay.· The next step in that process is
10· described at the fifth page under Section 2-78-130
11· where -- which is entitled Decisions and
12· recommendations.· Can you turn there for me?
13· · · · A.· · I see it.
14· · · · Q.· · Okay.
15· · · · A.· · Which paragraph did you want me to look
16· at?
17· · · · Q.· · Starting at (a).
18· · · · A.· · Okay.· (a)(i)?
19· · · · Q.· · Yeah.· It says -20· · · · A.· · Or (a)(i).· Yeah, (a)(i).
21· · · · Q.· · -- "If the Chief Administrator
22· issues a recommendation of discipline or other
23· disciplinary remedial action with regard to one
24· or more members of the police department, the

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·1· Superintendent shall respond to such recommendation ·1· as to any disciplinary or remedial actions that

·2· within 60 days."

·2· need to take place with respect to the officer,

·3· · · · · · · · ·Do you see that?

·3· true?

·4· · · · A.· · Um-hmm.

·4· · · · A.· · Yes.

·5· · · · Q.· · Is that a yes?

·5· · · · Q.· · Then the Superintendent has a 60-day

·6· · · · A.· · Again, I apologize.· Yes.

·6· period to -- to respond to the recommendations of

·7· · · · Q.· · That's okay.

·7· COPA, true?

·8· · · · · · · · ·Then it identifies the three

·8· · · · A.· · They send him a private communication,

·9· responses that the Superintendent can have to the

·9· correct, that says, Here's what our investigator

10· recommendation of the Chief Administrator of COPA.

10· says, and here's our review.

11· · · · · · · · ·Do you see that?

11· · · · Q.· · Well, the available responses that the

12· · · · A.· · I'm reading it now.

12· Superintendent can have to COPA's recommendation

13· · · · Q.· · Okay.· The first one describes that,

13· are delineated in Section 2-78-130, which we just

14· "The Superintendent's response shall include

14· covered, true?

15· either:· (1) a confirmation that the recommendation

15· · · · A.· · Yes.

16· was followed with respect to the employee in

16· · · · Q.· · There are three different options; one

17· question, and, if applicable, a description of any

17· is to confirm, secondly is to request additional

18· additional disciplinary or other action imposed by

18· investigation, or, thirdly, if he's going to take

19· the Superintendent."

19· no action -- either he can take no action or he can

20· · · · · · · · ·Do you see that?

20· specify some different action.

21· · · · A.· · I do.

21· · · · A.· · Different, yeah.

22· · · · Q.· · A second option is "a request that the

22· · · · Q.· · Okay.· And, again, those three options

23· Chief Administrator conduct additional investigation,

23· apply to the recommendation from COPA as to what

24· specifying the additional investigation that is

24· disciplinary or remedial action needs to take place
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·1· requested, and the reasons for that request."

·1· as to the officer, true?

·2· · · · · · · · ·Do you see that?

·2· · · · A.· · Or what -- but it's describing the role

·3· · · · A.· · I do.

·3· of the Superintendent.

·4· · · · Q.· · And then the third option is for "if

·4· · · · Q.· · Yes.

·5· the Superintendent intends to take no action, or

·5· · · · A.· · Correct.

·6· intends to take action that differs in substance

·6· · · · Q.· · That's the second stage --

·7· and/or scope from the recommendation, the

·7· · · · A.· · Right.

·8· information required under subsection (a)(ii) of

·8· · · · Q.· · -- second step of the process we've

·9· this section."

·9· talked about, true?

10· · · · · · · · ·And subsection (a)(ii) says, quote,

10· · · · A.· · Right.· And my understanding is in the

11· "If the Superintendent intends to take no action,

11· past that used to be the final.· Today that's no

12· or intends to take action different from that

12· longer the final.

13· recommended by the Chief Administrator, the

13· · · · Q.· · The third step is the Police Board

14· Superintendent shall describe the proposed

14· step?

15· different action and explain the reasons for

15· · · · A.· · If enacted, yeah.· Yes.

16· it in a written response."

16· · · · Q.· · We're currently in the second stage of

17· · · · · · · · ·Do you see that?

17· that process because on March 22nd, Superintendent

18· · · · A.· · I do see that.

18· Eddie Johnson issued a letter addressing COPA's

19· · · · Q.· · Okay.· So is it fair -- we talked

19· findings sustaining certain allegations against

20· earlier about the process, there's a multistage

20· Officer Rialmo, true?

21· process.· First, COPA does its investigation and

21· · · · A.· · The Superintendent?

22· makes findings, true?

22· · · · Q.· · Yes.· I asked a convoluted question.

23· · · · A.· · Yes.

23· Let me reask it.

24· · · · Q.· · COPA then comes out with a recommendation 24· · · · A.· · What a shock.

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·1· · · · Q.· · Not as convoluted as the answers.
·2· · · · · · · · ·All right.· December 22nd of 2017
·3· COPA issued its report.
·4· · · · A.· · Yeah.· Yes.
·5· · · · MR. SISKEL:· I think you said December 22nd.
·6· · · · MR. ROGERS:· It is December.· COPA's report.
·7· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Okay.· Sorry.· Go ahead.
·8· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Okay.· Here, let me do it this
·9· way.
10· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· Are you going to mark that,
11· Larry?
12· · · · MR. ROGERS:· What's that?
13· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· Are you going to mark that?
14· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Yeah.· Let me do this.· I think
15· we're at 7, yeah.
16· BY MR. ROGERS:
17· · · · Q.· · December 22nd of 2017, COPA issued its
18· findings in a summary report.· Okay?· That's here.
19· For your convenience, I've tabbed the findings.
20· Okay?
21· · · · A.· · Okay.
22· · · · Q.· · There were seven allegations that were
23· raised.· They are set forth -24· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Larry, do you have other copies?

·1· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· I represent the officer, so I
·2· guess that question's to me.
·3· · · · THE WITNESS:· I'm fine.· Don't worry about
·4· it.
·5· · · · MR. ROGERS:· He's ask- -- I think he's asking
·6· if it's okay for him to review this because he's
·7· not in the process.
·8· · · · THE WITNESS:· Yes.
·9· · · · MR. ROGERS:· I don't think there's a problem.
10· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Well, Judge, just separately I
11· would raise an objection that I believe -12· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Because depart- -13· · · · MR. SISKEL:· -- we are getting way beyond the
14· scope.· When this area of inquiry had been
15· discussed in prior hearings, your Honor ruled that
16· if the Mayor has not reviewed these materials -17· that they can inquire whether he's reviewed these
18· materials.· He's testified that he hasn't.· To now
19· go through the substance seems to me is beyond the
20· scope.
21· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Actually what befuddles me
22· beyond my comprehension, which might not be that
23· great, is every one of these documents and
24· materials on what was going to be reviewed, what

Page 67

·1· · · · MR. ROGERS:· I do.
·2· BY MR. ROGERS:
·3· · · · Q.· · The seven allegations are set forth on
·4· the first page -- on the fourth page of the report.
·5· Take a look at those.
·6· · · · A.· · May, while I read this, ask -·7· · · · Q.· · I'm sorry?
·8· · · · A.· · I'm going to ask a question at the end.
·9· · · · Q.· · Sure.
10· · · · A.· · Um-hmm.
11· · · · Q.· · Did -- you wanted to say something?
12· · · · A.· · I just want to make sure, you know,
13· one of the impetuses was to make sure there's no
14· political, not just myself, elected officials,
15· meaning aldermen, et cetera, anybody really
16· involved in this matter.· I suppose it's fine
17· to look at this, right, after the fact?
18· · · · Q.· · You -19· · · · A.· · I mean, there's a real -20· · · · Q.· · I understand what you're saying.
21· · · · THE COURT:· One second.· Is there something
22· which should be off the record on here?
23· · · · THE WITNESS:· No.· I just want to make sure -24· I mean, I purposely --

Page 69

·1· was going to be gone through was delineated ad
·2· nauseam in all these other hearings so that this
·3· whole thing could have gone much faster.· The fact
·4· that it wasn't brought to your attention or the
·5· Mayor's attention surprises me.
·6· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Well, your Honor, as the Mayor
·7· has testified, he does not have a role in this
·8· process and has, other than public reporting, not
·9· reviewed COPA's summary report and recommendation
10· nor does he think it's appropriate to do so, which
11· is the concern that he's raising.
12· · · · · · · · ·The point that I'm making is simply
13· that your Honor had previously ruled they can ask
14· whether he has been involved in the COPA
15· recommendation process.· He has said he hasn't
16· been.· And that should be the end of -17· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· By "COPA recommendation
18· process," you mean the -19· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Their summary.
20· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· -- the findings of the -21· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Yeah.
22· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· Judge, just to be clear, this
23· is something -- this is my initial motion to compel
24· back in January specifically said that I wanted to

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·1· ask the Mayor about the COPA findings.
·2· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· If I may, Judge.· Since I
·3· represent Officer Rialmo, I can say he's the most
·4· affected by the report, we have no objection to the
·5· Mayor reviewing the report.
·6· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Your Honor -·7· · · · MR. ROGERS:· And I would also say these are
·8· in the public domain, your Honor.· The Mayor's
·9· indicated he's reviewed only what's in the public
10· domain.· So we're showing him things that were
11· released publicly.
12· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· I haven't seen it.· Can I take
13· a look?
14· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Yes.
15· · · · THE WITNESS:· You can have mine.
16· · · · THE COURT:· Thank you, by the way.
17· · · · · · · · ·So there are seven findings; is that
18· it?
19· · · · MR. ROGERS:· There were seven allegations,
20· and then there are seven findings that were made by
21· COPA, yes.
22· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· Summary of findings.
23· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· And so the first question was
24· has the Mayor ever reviewed it.

·1· out of here, this process hasn't ended.· I've been
·2· very clear from the beginning of when we started
·3· COPA it was going to have an independent Chinese
·4· wall, and the process as it relates to this is not
·5· done.· And I walk out of here, soon hopefully, and
·6· I'm back to being the Mayor, a case has not ended
·7· yet.· It's going through -- it's only at stage 2 of
·8· a 3-stage process.· And you're asking me to look at
·9· something, and I -- we specifically -- going back
10· to the origination of COPA, my speech was to create
11· a Chinese wall.· And I have -- I will walk out of
12· here.· I'll look at this.· But I'm trying to make
13· sure I am true not only to the letter, but the
14· spirit of which we set up what is an independent
15· entity and an independent process.
16· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· So the first thing is going to
17· be he hasn't reviewed none of these allegations
18· that are laid out 1 through 7 on page 4 of this
19· December 22nd, 2017 report, correct?
20· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Correct.· The only reason it's a
21· bit more complicated than that is that this report
22· has the findings which we started at the beginning
23· of the dep discussing, which is that COPA found
24· that these were unjustified shootings.· Those are

Page 71

·1· · · · MR. ROGERS:· I was showing him the allegations
·2· that were made as to Officer Rialmo at page 4 of
·3· the report.
·4· · · · MR. SISKEL:· But I think one of the -·5· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· But still the first question
·6· is has the Mayor ever reviewed it, and the answer
·7· is no.
·8· · · · THE WITNESS:· I've seen what's -- I've seen
·9· what's in the public domain, not this.
10· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Okay.
11· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· I think we mean public
12· domain -13· · · · THE WITNESS:· I mean in the newspapers.
14· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· -- what he's read in the
15· newspaper.
16· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Well, I think it should be
17· limited because my understanding from your earlier
18· testimony when I was listening over there is you've
19· only read what's in the newspaper, not in the
20· public domain.· So is it true that you haven't gone
21· on the Internet or done any other research as to
22· this incident?
23· · · · THE WITNESS:· Your Honor, I have not.· And my
24· concern is -- and my concern as the Mayor is I walk

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·1· the conclusions in this report.
·2· · · · THE COURT:· Those are the conclusions in that
·3· report, which I think is out in the public domain.
·4· And then the Superintendent's findings were in
·5· opposite of this.
·6· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Correct.
·7· · · · THE COURT:· I don't think anybody disagrees
·8· with that.
·9· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Okay.
10· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Okay.· So now the question
11· is -- I mean -- well, were you going to go through
12· each one of these allegations with these -13· · · · MR. ROGERS:· I was really just for the -14· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· -- or is the question -- or is
15· the question going to be what was in the public
16· domain where COPA found A and the Superintendent -17· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Sure.
18· · · · THE COURT:· -- found exactly opposite of A?
19· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Sure.· What I'll do, your Honor,
20· just to -- out of concern for what the Mayor's
21· expressed and your concern as well, I'm going to
22· back out into the process again, okay, because we
23· went -- we went through the process.· And we're at
24· the second stage with the Superintendent's review.

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·1· · · · · · · · ·Okay.· So what I was trying to do
·2· was to show him the first step of the process,
·3· which was COPA's findings, which are in the report,
·4· and then move to the Superintendent's findings.
·5· · · · THE COURT:· Okay.· So I think everybody would
·6· agree that COPA has different findings than the
·7· Superintendent.· So do you want to -·8· · · · THE WITNESS:· Yes.
·9· · · · MR. ROGERS:· That's what I want to get to. I
10· just had to show him what COPA's findings were.
11· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· But you're not going to ask
12· him then to comment on COPA's seven findings?
13· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· I was planning to.
14· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Well, Mr. Rogers is taking the
15· lead on this.· Let's see where we're going to go
16· with this, and maybe we can limit it -17· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Yes.
18· · · · THE COURT:· -- define it.
19· · · · · · · · ·And I know you'll appreciate the
20· ambience in this room.· We're going to try to get
21· you out of here sooner than later.
22· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Right.
23· · · · THE COURT:· But, again, these wrong -24· · · · THE WITNESS:· I'll consider this my safe

Page 76

·1· · · · A.· · Um-hmm.
·2· · · · Q.· · 4, fired in the direction of Bettie
·3· Jones, which resulted in her death.
·4· · · · · · · · ·5, shot Bettie Jones without
·5· justification.
·6· · · · · · · · ·And 6, failed to provide Bettie
·7· Jones with medi- -- medical attention.
·8· · · · · · · · ·Then 7, failed to ensure that his
·9· laser certification was current from on or about
10· February 6th of 2014 through on or about March 16,
11· 2016.
12· · · · · · · · ·You see the allegations, correct?
13· · · · A.· · I do.
14· · · · Q.· · Okay.· I tabbed the findings to -- for
15· ease No. 1 and 5 -16· · · · A.· · Could you -17· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Where -- I don't -18· · · · MR. ROGERS:· It's page 4- -- it begins at
19· page 46 of the report.
20· · · · THE WITNESS:· Um-hmm.
21· BY MR. ROGERS:
22· · · · Q.· · Allegations 1 and 5, which are shot
23· Quintonio LeGrier without justification and shot
24· Bettie Jones without justification, were sustained.

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·1· space in the future.
·2· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Okay.· All these materials,
·3· what was going to be reviewed, was mentioned many,
·4· many times, and I thought that -·5· · · · MR. SISKEL:· And -·6· · · · THE COURT:· -- they'd been ready to go,
·7· so ...· But -·8· · · · MR. SISKEL:· And, your Honor, I was simply
·9· anticipating where I was concerned this is heading
10· to ask him to comment on those findings, which we
11· do have an objection to.
12· · · · MR. ROGERS:· I think we can work with it.
13· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Okay.· So go.
14· BY MR. ROGERS:
15· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Okay.· Page 4 of Exhibit 7 -16· · · · A.· · Um-hmm.
17· · · · Q.· · -- has the allegations.· They begin
18· with No. 1, shot Quintonio LeGrier without
19· justification.
20· · · · · · · · ·No. 2, failed to provide Quintonio
21· LeGrier with medical attention.
22· · · · · · · · ·No. 3, fired multiple times into a
23· home occupied by persons who would be at risk of
24· injury or death?

·1· · · · · · · · ·Do you see that?
·2· · · · A.· · I do.
·3· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Allegations 3 and 4, which were
·4· fired multiple times into a home occupied by
·5· persons who would be at risk of injury or death and
·6· fired in the direction of Bettie Jones, which
·7· resulted in her death, those were sustained.
·8· · · · · · · · ·Do you see that?
·9· · · · A.· · I do.
10· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Allegations 2 and 6 were
11· exonerated.· 2 and 6 were failed to provide
12· Quintonio LeGrier with medical attention, and
13· No. 6, failed to provide Bettie Jones with medical
14· attention.
15· · · · · · · · ·Do you see that?
16· · · · A.· · I do.
17· · · · Q.· · And then No. 7 is the final tab, and
18· that was sustained, and the allegation was failed
19· to ensure that his laser certification -20· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Taser.
21· BY MR. ROGERS:
22· · · · Q.· · I'm sorry.· Taser certification -- let
23· me rephrase that.
24· · · · · · · · ·The seventh allegation which was

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·1· sustained was -- by COPA was failed to ensure that
·1· deadly force and his failure to maintain his taser
·2· his taser certification was current from on or
·2· certification.· COPA's recommended discipline is

·3· about February 6, 2014 through on or about March 16, ·3· separation as a result of these sustained
·4· 2016.
·4· allegations.· COPA believes that this is a fair and
·5· · · · · · · · ·Do you see that?
·5· reasonable result based on the totality of
·6· · · · A.· · I do.
·7· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Once that was released on
·8· December 22nd of 2017, it triggered the second
·9· stage of the process, which is a 60-day review -10· 60 days for Superintendent Johnson to respond to
11· the recommendations of COPA, correct?
12· · · · A.· · And my understanding also is review the
13· foundation of those.
14· · · · Q.· · Where do you see that in the COPA
15· ordinance?
16· · · · A.· · Well, it -- I don't see it.· I mean, I
17· have to review the COPA ordinance.· I have not
18· reviewed it.
19· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Well, let's be very specific
20· about this.· The -- the -21· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· It was -- there's two parts to
22· it, I believe, your question.· So maybe we can
23· confine this a little bit.
24· · · · THE WITNESS:· Okay.

·6· circumstances.· For specifics regarding the case,
·7· please refer to the summary report."
·8· · · · · · · · ·Do you see that?
·9· · · · A.· · I do.
10· · · · Q.· · So the distinction is the findings are
11· in Exhibit 7, the report, the recommendation is in
12· Exhibit 8, true?
13· · · · A.· · Yes.
14· · · · Q.· · So the recommendation is pure and
15· simply separation of Officer Rialmo from the
16· department, true?
17· · · · A.· · The recommendations from COPA?
18· · · · Q.· · Yes.
19· · · · A.· · Correct.
20· · · · Q.· · Okay.· The process that we went through
21· at sections -22· · · · A.· · Is this document 5?
23· · · · Q.· · Yes.
24· · · · · · · · ·At Section 2-78-130 under Decisions

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·1· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· So the first part was -·2· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Well -·3· · · · THE COURT:· -- that it was -·4· BY MR. ROGERS:
·5· · · · Q.· · I'll restructure it.
·6· · · · · · · · ·Exhibit 7 that we just went over is
·7· the COPA report with the findings, correct?
·8· · · · A.· · Correct.
·9· · · · Q.· · And it goes through the two-year
10· investigation COPA conducted of this shooting
11· incident, and they reached their conclusions,
12· which we just covered, true?
13· · · · A.· · Yes.
14· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Exhibit 8, which I will show
15· you, is COPA's recommendation as a result of its
16· investigation.
17· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Do you have an extra copy of
18· that?
19· BY MR. ROGERS:
20· · · · Q.· · Exhibit 8 is a December 22nd, 2017 -21· · · · A.· · Um-hmm.
22· · · · Q.· · -- letter from COPA to Eddie Johnson
23· stating, quote, "COPA has sustained allegations
24· against Officer Rialmo for his unjustified use of

·1· and recommendations under -- I'm sorry, not under
·2· decisions -- yes, under Decisions and
·3· recommendations, (a)(i) delineates the three
·4· options, all of which apply to the recommendation
·5· of discipline, true?
·6· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection; calls for a legal
·7· conclusion.
·8· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· He can answer if he can.
·9· Answer over objection.· Let's see.
10· · · · MR. SISKEL:· If you can.
11· · · · THE WITNESS:· I don't know.· That's the short
12· answer.
13· BY MR. ROGERS:
14· · · · Q.· · Well, let's read it.· Section 2-78-130 -15· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Is this what we're going -16· maybe I can -- so this is what -- is this the COPA
17· ordinance?
18· · · · MR. ROGERS:· This is the COPA ordinance.
19· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· But not the -- I'm sorry,
20· Judge.· But not the rules and regulations which
21· were adopted pursuant to the ordinance.
22· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Okay.· But right now we're
23· talking about the COPA ordinance; is that correct?
24· · · · MR. ROGERS:· We are.

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·1· · · · THE COURT:· And that COPA ordinance lets -·1· letter --

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·2· sets forth three responses the Superintendent can

·2· · · · MR. ROGERS:· It is.
·3· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· -- is different than
·4· correct?
·4· delineated -·5· · · · MR. ROGERS:· No.· To the COPA recommendations.
·5· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Superintendent's -- yes.· He has
·6· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Okay.· So it's the three
·6· no authority under the statute to respond as he
·7· responses the Superintendent can give to the COPA
·7· did, and we want to point that out on the statute.
·8· recommendations?
·8· · · · · · · · ·We also want to point out the fact
·9· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Correct.
·9· that he swore under oath that he didn't.
10· · · · THE COURT:· Okay.· So that's where we're at.
10· · · · THE COURT:· Okay.· So -- well, first of all,
11· And so now COPA's recommendation -11· so the response -- what are the responses that he
12· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Was separation.
12· can do under the statute then?
13· · · · THE COURT:· -- was separation.· Okay.· Go.
13· · · · MR. ROGERS:· The three responses he can do
14· BY MR. ROGERS:
14· are to confirm the recommendation.· Again, the
15· · · · Q.· · Right.· So this -- here's my question:
15· recommendation was separation from the department.
16· · · · · · · · ·Section 2-78-130 under Decisions and
16· · · · · · · · ·The second one was to request that
17· recommendations, as we've discussed, delineates the 17· the Chief Administrator do an additional
18· Superintendent's opportunity to respond to COPA's
18· investigation or supplemental investigation, which
19· recommendation of discipline or other nondisciplinary 19· he did not do.
20· remedial action, true?
20· · · · THE COURT:· So the first one he didn't do.
21· · · · A.· · Yes.
21· The second one he didn't do.
22· · · · Q.· · And he's to do so within 60 days unless
22· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Right.· The third one was
23· he requests an additional extension, true?
23· to take no action as to the recommendation or
24· · · · A.· · Yes.
24· different action and explain the reasons in the
·3· give in response to the COPA findings; is that

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Page 85

·1· · · · Q.· · I will quote it just for clarity for

·1· response.
·2· the record and you.· It says, quote, "If the Chief
·2· · · · THE COURT:· Okay.· So he didn't do one, two,
·3· Administrator issues a recommendation of discipline ·3· or three.
·4· or other nondisciplinary remedial action with
·4· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Correct.
·5· regard to one or more members of the police
·5· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· But it appears that he did do
·6· department, the Superintendent shall respond to
·6· four.
·7· such recommendation within 60 days.· The
·7· · · · MR. ROGERS:· No.
·8· Superintendent's response shall include either,"
·8· · · · THE COURT:· Okay.
·9· and then it delineates the three things we
·9· · · · MR. ROGERS:· He did not.
10· discussed, true?
10· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· He did none of the above.· He
11· · · · A.· · That's what it reads.
11· did something different.
12· · · · Q.· · Does any -- nothing within this section
12· · · · MR. ROGERS:· He did something different.
13· gives the Superintendent the right to challenge the
13· · · · MR. SISKEL:· And, Judge -14· findings of COPA, true?
14· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Well, one -15· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection; calls for a legal
15· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Okay.
16· conclusion, lack of foundation.
16· · · · THE COURT:· One second.· Okay.· So then is
17· BY MR. ROGERS:
17· everybody in agreement with -18· · · · Q.· · You may answer.
18· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· But -19· · · · A.· · I don't know how to answer that question.
19· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· One second.· So plaintiffs'
20· · · · Q.· · Let me show you what we will mark as
20· attorneys, you're in agreement with that, is that
21· Exhibit No. 9, which is the discovery deposition
21· he did something different than delineated; is that
22· of Eddie Johnson.
22· correct?
23· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Is -- is this where -- is this
23· · · · MR. KENNEDY:· Correct.
24· going where the Superintendent's response to this
24· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· Yes, that is our position.

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·1· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· But our position, Judge -·2· · · · THE COURT:· Don't speak.
·3· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· That's the plaintiffs'
·4· position.
·5· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· It's not a -- what I just
·6· asked you isn't a qualification to get into MENSA.
·7· It's are you agreement or not?· And it's three
·8· letters or two letters.· Again, I'm going to go
·9· through it again.
10· · · · · · · · ·Mr. Rogers, for your client, are you
11· guys in agreement with that?
12· · · · MR. ROGERS:· He did not do one, two, or
13· three, correct.
14· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· No, not in agreement.
15· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· So you're saying he did do one
16· of those things?
17· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· Yes.
18· · · · THE COURT:· What of those things did he do?
19· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· No. 3.· He took an action that
20· differs in substance from the action that COPA
21· recommended.
22· · · · THE COURT:· Okay.· And what was the action
23· that he took that differs in substance?
24· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· Recommend that Officer Rialmo

Page 88

·1· rules and regulations further interpreting it have
·2· not been provided.
·3· · · · · · · · ·But this witness is not here to
·4· opine on a legal question.· They have identified
·5· particular areas that they said they wanted to
·6· question this witness about, and one of them was
·7· about COPA's recommendations.· This is now getting
·8· into way afield of that and getting into questions
·9· about whether the Superintendent's actions comply
10· with the ordinance or not, which this witness is
11· not the appropriate witness to do that.· It's a
12· legal question for your Honor to decide.
13· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Your Honor, I'm questioning the
14· champion of COPA who created COPA to reform IPRA,
15· which was an internal system where the police
16· department was policing itself.· This was created
17· to be independent of that.
18· · · · · · · · ·So I'm very appropriately sticking
19· with the process that we've discussed, how it came
20· about, and proceeding into where we are in terms of
21· that process.
22· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· So I haven't read the 11 pages.
23· · · · THE WITNESS:· Do you want me to move over?
24· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· I'm actually showing them my

Page 87

Page 89

·1· be exonerated from using excessive force.
·2· · · · THE COURT:· Okay.· So here, I think his
·3· recommendation -- we're going to get to that in
·4· a minute.
·5· · · · · · · · ·Counsel.
·6· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· I agree with Mr. Rogers.
·7· · · · THE COURT:· Okay.· We took care of everybody.
·8· · · · · · · · ·Where's his recommendation again?
·9· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Mr. -- Superintendent Johnson's?
10· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Yes.
11· · · · MR. ROGERS:· It's -- it's right here.
12· · · · THE COURT:· How many pages is it?
13· · · · MR. ROGERS:· 11 pages.
14· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· Would this be a good time for a
15· break, Judge?
16· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Well, let me just -- I'd like to
17· finish the line of questioning before we take a
18· break.
19· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· Sorry, Larry.
20· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Judge, if I could respond. I
21· think this is an improper line of questions for the
22· witness that they're asking him to make a legal
23· judgment about interpretation of a provision of the
24· City code, which, as Mr. Brodsky points out, the

·1· best side.· Yeah.
·2· · · · · · · · ·Well, I think what -- so your
·3· question basically is did the Superintendent comply
·4· with the COPA -- with the -- is it three or four -·5· · · · MR. ROGERS:· There are three options in
·6· response to the recommendation.· There's no
·7· description of an opportunity whatsoever to respond
·8· to findings.· And I will show you where Eddie
·9· Johnson has testified that that is not the role of
10· the police department, to investigate police
11· shootings.
12· · · · THE COURT:· Well, I think -13· · · · MR. ROGERS:· That is the role of COPA.· We've
14· gone -15· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· So there's a couple things on
16· that.· One is neither of these counsel were present
17· when Mr. Johnson testified.
18· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· Ms. Avendano was.
19· · · · THE COURT:· Okay.· So the Mayor and his
20· counsel, they weren't present for that.
21· · · · · · · · ·So the question we're getting into
22· now is the response.
23· · · · · · · · ·And so Mr. Brodsky is saying that -24· · · · MR. ROGERS:· He can question him.

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Page 90
·1· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Well, he's saying -- but he's
·1· findings.· He wasn't there for the dep.
·2· saying -- well, we want to try to untie the knot
·2· · · · MR. ROGERS:· That's why I brought it.

Page 92

·3· before it gets tighter.

·3· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Yeah.· And he -- I forgot what
·4· his testimony was regarding if he reviewed the
·5· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· So what Mr. Brodsky is saying
·5· Superintendent's findings.
·6· is that actually, though, Mr. -- the Superintendent's
·6· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Who?
·7· report was in compliance because -·7· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· No.
·8· · · · MR. ROGERS:· He likes the report.
·8· · · · MR. SISKEL:· He said he has not.
·9· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Shocker.
·9· · · · THE COURT:· He has not?
10· · · · · · · · ·What was the reason you set forth?
10· · · · MR. ROGERS:· No.· What was in the public
11· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· If you look at the definition
11· domain, yes.· And it ia the public -12· of number -- of option No. 3, it said the
12· · · · MR. SISKEL:· He's referring to press accounts.
13· Superintendent can say he intends to take no action
13· · · · THE COURT:· Yeah.· It was limited to the
14· in regard to the complaint, which he's not going to
14· newspapers.
15· do anything to discipline the officer, or intend to
15· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Yes.
16· acts that differs in substance and/or scope from
16· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Okay.
17· the recommendations of COPA, which means he's going 17· · · · THE WITNESS:· For the explicit purpose of not
18· to do discipline, but it's going to be different.
18· being in any way interfering or any way -19· · · · · · · · ·In this case, he's exonerate- -19· · · · THE COURT:· So he's already gone through, and
20· says he should exonerate Officer Rialmo on not
20· by "he," I mean the Mayor has gone through what his
21· using excessive force and not being -- and use -21· recollection of and his role in finding COPA and
22· and not being outside the policy and not having
22· underneath the ordinances and what those are.
23· justification for shooting, but he didn't exonerate
23· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Yes.
24· him, I think, on not having the taser certification
24· · · · THE COURT:· I think they speak for themselves.
·4· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· But, Judge --

Page 91

·1· and other -- other items which would call for a
·2· much lighter discipline than termination, usually
·3· a couple days without pay.
·4· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Well, those are things I'm going
·5· to highlight actually.· He ignores, completely
·6· ignores the fact that he did not maintain his taser
·7· certification and does not address -·8· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· Which is exactly what I'm
·9· talking about.
10· · · · MR. ROGERS:· -- does not address any
11· discipline related to a clear, unequivocal
12· violation.
13· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· Which is different -14· · · · MR. ROGERS:· And spends all of his 11 pages
15· exonerating a fellow police officer and reanalyzing
16· evidence that COPA was charged with analyzing, and
17· he was never charged with analyzing.· Seven days
18· ago he hadn't reviewed anything.· And -19· · · · THE COURT:· Understood.· Well, my -- wouldn't
20· that be -- and I know that everybody reserved their
21· rights pending the release of this to redepose the
22· Superintendent limited to that.· And wouldn't that
23· be the -- so the Mayor has gone through what those
24· options are regarding, that you've laid out, those

Page 93

·1· · · · MR. ROGERS:· The ordinance.
·2· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· And what the -- what the
·3· Superintendent can do.
·4· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Yes.
·5· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Right.
·6· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· Under the -- under the
·7· ordinance, but the procedure for disagreeing -·8· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· I'm -·9· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· Oh, I'm sorry.
10· · · · THE COURT:· I'm still going through this with
11· Mr. Rogers.· You can place your bets on the Final
12· Four while we do this.
13· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· I'm looking for the ordinance.
14· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· So I think those -- those
15· things are clear on its face; it's clear on its
16· face what his options are.· I think the person to
17· question regarding this 11-page finding is the
18· person who sent out the finding.
19· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Respectfully, I'm -- the reason
20· I think it's appropriate -- an appropriate line of
21· questioning is the premise that I started with,
22· which is why we created COPA -- why he created COPA
23· and the City Council created COPA, independence;
24· independence of the police department.

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Page 96

·1· · · · · · · · ·We went over the fact that they have
·2· different jurisdictions.· The police department
·3· does not have the jurisdiction to investigate
·4· police-involved shootings.· Yet, yet -- nor under
·5· the COPA statute does he have the authority to
·6· reconsider the findings of COPA.· Okay?· Yet, he
·7· spends 11 pages refiguring -- reconfiguring
·8· findings of COPA.· COPA took two years.· Seven days
·9· ago he hadn't reviewed a thing.· And all of sudden
10· he's going to exonerate a police officer who killed
11· two citizens?· I have a problem with that, and it's
12· a proper line of questioning because it's not what
13· COPA -- we talked about.· It's not why COPA was
14· created.· We went over the process that they're
15· supposed to follow.· He didn't follow it.
16· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Well, let me ask this
17· question:· Is there any question right now that
18· anyone feels that they -- the COPA process was not
19· sufficiently delineated on what is to occur when
20· there's a report for an officer-involved shooting?
21· That's been gone through ad nauseam right now,
22· right?
23· · · · MR. SISKEL:· It has.· And to then take it to
24· ask this witness --

·1· and I think it's important that it be followed, and
·2· that it's very plain -·3· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· I think everybody here would
·4· stipulate to everything that you just said.· Right?
·5· Okay.· Keep going.
·6· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Well, we haven't even got into
·7· other things that are relevant to the process and
·8· why.
·9· · · · THE COURT:· All right.· Well, let's start.
10· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Okay.
11· · · · THE COURT:· We'll see where we're at.
12· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Okay.
13· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Judge, we -14· · · · THE COURT:· Let's go for a few minutes.
15· · · · MR. SISKEL:· We've been going for an hour and
16· a half.
17· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· We could have been gone for a
18· half hour and covered all of this, but all these
19· materials that were going to be -- that were going
20· to be tendered to the Mayor for his review were
21· discussed much earlier, and I was -- I instructed
22· to have everybody prepare for.
23· · · · · · · · ·And it's unfortunate that they
24· weren't tendered to you earlier so that -- I mean,

Page 95

Page 97
·1· the good part is you do get to enjoy this ambience

·1· · · · THE COURT:· Well, no, no -·2· · · · MR. SISKEL:· -- to draw a legal con- -- okay.
·3· · · · THE COURT:· I can't multitask.· Okay?· I keep
·4· questions very simple.
·5· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Okay.
·6· · · · THE COURT:· And I keep it for a reason.
·7· · · · · · · · ·So that's been gone through, the
·8· complete process on what's -- so then the question
·9· is -- that Mr. Rogers wants to ask, I believe, is
10· if in the Mayor's opinion that process was followed
11· by the Superintendent.· Is that correct?
12· · · · MR. ROGERS:· I will get there, yes.
13· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· I thought I just got there.
14· · · · MR. ROGERS:· You're faster than I am.· I've
15· tried to really lay a foundation for the questions.
16· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· No.· I know.· I think it's
17· kind of asking him to shoot from the lip if he
18· hasn't analyzed all 11 -- how many pages?
19· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· 11 pages.
20· · · · MR. ROGERS:· I brought everything to -- so
21· it's available to him.· I'm not -- I'm not -- I
22· don't think I am being unfair, and I'm trying to be
23· very careful not to be unfair.· But -- but I think
24· the process, you know, arguably is well intended,

·2· a little more.
·3· · · · MR. ROGERS:· And I'll try to move forward
·4· with these -·5· · · · THE COURT:· So go.· Go.
·6· BY MR. ROGERS:
·7· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Again, I tried to bring things
·8· to be fair to you in your -- in our evaluation of
·9· the suit.· Let me show what we'll mark as -- am I
10· on 9?
11· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· 9, yeah.
12· BY MR. ROGERS:
13· · · · Q.· · No. 9 is a copy of Superintendent Eddie
14· Johnson's deposition that was given under oath
15· March 15th of 2018.· And I direct you, just for
16· expedience, to page 49 where he was asked about the
17· role of Internal Affairs.
18· · · · A.· · Mine goes up to 48.
19· · · · Q.· · I'm sorry?
20· · · · A.· · You said 49.· Mine goes up to page 48.
21· · · · Q.· · That is the attachment.· If you go to
22· those pages, there's a 49.
23· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Are they four to a sheet?
24· · · · THE WITNESS:· I see it.· I got it.· I'm

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·1· sorry.
·2· BY MR. ROGERS:
·3· · · · Q.· · The question at the beginning of page
·4· 49, line 2, says:
·5· · · · · · · · ·"Okay.· And what have you
·6· · · · · · learned from your chief of Internal
·7· · · · · · Affairs when you've asked -- I'm sorry.
·8· · · · · · · · ·I need to go to page 48 for context.
·9· · · · · · · · ·Question at line 20, page 48:
10· · · · · · · · ·"Have you ever specifically
11· · · · · · asked your chief of Internal Affairs
12· · · · · · about how complaints of misconduct -13· · · · · · complaints of excessive force are
14· · · · · · being investigated by your police
15· · · · · · department?
16· · · · · · · · ·"Answer:· Yes.
17· · · · · · · · ·"Question:· Okay.· And what
18· · · · · · have you learned from your chief of
19· · · · · · Internal Affairs when you've asked
20· · · · · · that question?
21· · · · · · · · ·"Answer:· That complaints of
22· · · · · · excessive force are actually handled
23· · · · · · by IPRA/COPA now.
24· · · · · · · · ·"Question:· Okay.

Page 100

·1· · · · A.· · Okay.
·2· · · · Q.· · It is available to you, and I -- and
·3· allow me to instruct you that as of that time he
·4· had not reviewed anything other than an executive
·5· summary of sorts as to the investigation, the two·6· year investigation conducted by IPRA/COPA into this
·7· shooting.
·8· · · · A.· · Okay.
·9· · · · Q.· · Okay.· On March 22nd, seven days later,
10· he has prepared what we will mark as Exhibit 10, an
11· 11-page letter.
12· · · · A.· · Do you want me to put this down?
13· · · · Q.· · Yes.
14· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Break this down.· So so far as
15· to what was stated and the dates of these
16· occurrences, those are all accurate, correct?
17· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Yes.
18· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Is there any contention as to
19· that?
20· · · · MR. SISKEL:· No.
21· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Okay.
22· · · · MR. ROGERS:· I'm sorry.
23· · · · THE COURT:· That's all right.
24

Page 99

·1· · · · · · · · ·"Answer:· So CPD -- answer from
·2· Mr. -- Superintendent Johnson:
·3· · · · · · · · ·"So CPD really don't -- we
·4· · · · · · really don't investigate excessive
·5· · · · · · force or abuse; that civilian
·6· · · · · · agency does that."
·7· · · · · · · · ·Without reading it all, feel free to
·8· read it quietly.· He goes on to the next page and
·9· acknowledges again -- he's asked:
10· · · · · · · · ·"Is there anything prohibiting
11· · · · · · you as a Superintendent from initiating
12· · · · · · your own separate investigation
13· · · · · · if there's an alleged excessive
14· · · · · · force incident?
15· · · · · · · · ·"Answer:· Yes.· All excessive
16· · · · · · force is investigated by COPA.· So
17· · · · · · that is an independent investigation."
18· · · · · · · · ·Do you see that testimony?
19· · · · A.· · Um-hmm.
20· · · · Q.· · Okay.· That was -- is that a yes?
21· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Is that a yes?
22· · · · THE WITNESS:· Yes.· I apologize.· Yes.
23· BY MR. ROGERS:
24· · · · Q.· · It was approximately a week ago.

Page 101
·1· BY MR. ROGERS:
·2· · · · Q.· · On March 22nd of 2018, Superintendent
·3· Johnson issued a letter -·4· · · · A.· · Um-hmm.
·5· · · · Q.· · -- that has been characterized by the
·6· City as a nonconcurrence letter.
·7· · · · A.· · Um-hmm.
·8· · · · Q.· · And he proceeds for 11 pages to
·9· repeatedly and expressly exonerate Officer Rialmo
10· as it relates to allegations 1 and 2 and 3 and 4,
11· which specifically relate to shooting and killing
12· Bettie Jones and Quintonio LeGrier.· He does not
13· address allegation No. 7 with regard to the failure
14· of Officer Rialmo to have his taser certification
15· current.· And he does not expressly address the
16· recommendation, which was separation.
17· · · · · · · · ·So the ordinance allows him, as
18· we've gone over, to only address the recommendation,
19· yet he spends 11 pages addressing the findings and,
20· quote, unquote, "exonerating" his fellow officer.
21· · · · · · · · ·My question to you, isn't -- wasn't
22· the purpose of COPA to conduct independent
23· investigations, reach independent findings so that
24· police are not investigating police?

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·1· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection to the form of the
·2· question.· Objection; calls for a legal conclusion.
·3· Invites speculation.
·4· BY MR. ROGERS:
·5· · · · Q.· · You may answer.
·6· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Well, I think -·7· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Oh, I'm sorry.
·8· · · · THE COURT:· It's the last part of the
·9· question that -- and you might have already
10· answered it, and I'm going to ask you to answer it
11· once again, is that the reason that COPA was
12· founded, and part of the reason was police aren't
13· investigating police.· I think that's why IPRA was
14· taken -- was dis- -15· · · · THE WITNESS:· I'll just say this.· One is
16· any question about jurisdiction or rules we're
17· following would always -- in any manner would go to
18· legal counsel and also City Council process, and
19· that is not for the Mayor.· So this very question
20· would not be more me in norm.
21· · · · · · · · ·Number two, I would say that the
22· Superintendent's decision in following this must
23· have been obviously guided by counsel that he's
24· within his jurisdiction and as intended not only

·1· independent review.· Right?· That was the purpose
·2· of COPA, independent review, right?
·3· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Yes.
·4· · · · THE WITNESS:· One step in that independence.
·5· · · · THE COURT:· Independent.
·6· · · · · · · · ·And then in these -- in any case of
·7· police misconduct where it -- involving excessive
·8· force or shootings that Internal Affairs were not
·9· investigating it.· It was an independent agency so
10· that police were not investigating police.
11· · · · THE WITNESS:· It is an independent process
12· started by COPA to the Superintendent, to the
13· Police Board.
14· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· So that police weren't
15· investigating police officers, correct?
16· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Because of what came -17· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Ah.· Ah.· It's simple.· Is it
18· your understanding that that was part of the reason
19· for the creation, so that police weren't
20· investigating police?
21· · · · THE WITNESS:· That was one -- that was one of
22· the reasons, as I've answered, and -23· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Okay.· That's all.· Done right
24· there.

Page 103

Page 105

·1· with the ordinance, but all the rules that came
·2· after that ordinance, interpreting it.
·3· · · · · · · · ·So I -- my -- so I'd be just saying
·4· to you is I never would get involved in this kind
·5· of interpretation.· That's what counsel -- and
·6· there's a whole body and process inside City
·7· Council to make sure that it's procedurally
·8· correct.· And I'm sure that as the Superintendent
·9· wrote his 11 pages, he was guided that he was
10· within his jurisdiction.· And that's just what I'm
11· assuming to be the exact way this worked.· But I do
12· know for sure if there's any question, it's a legal
13· question, therefore, the lawyers answer it, not the
14· Mayor.· And I'm not a lawyer.
15· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· We're taking his dep next.
16· · · · THE WITNESS:· That's -- I would enjoy that.
17· · · · THE COURT:· We can get back to -- I think we
18· can really distill it down to two things.
19· BY MR. ROGERS:
20· · · · Q.· · You are a lawyer, aren't you?
21· · · · A.· · Nope.· Not a lawyer, Larry.
22· · · · THE COURT:· Probably smarter that we are.
23· · · · · · · · ·Let's get back to this.· But I think
24· what he's testified is that COPA was going to do an

·1· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Can I get my question read back
·2· so I have an answer in the record to my question?
·3· · · · THE COURT:· You can have it read it back.
·4· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Okay.
·5· · · · THE COURT:· But I think it's really distilled
·6· down to those two simple things.
·7· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· Oh, I found the regulation on
·8· that issue.
·9· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· He's not a lawyer.· So let's
10· go.
11· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Can you read back my question?
12· · · · · · · · · · · (Brief pause.)
13· · · · THE VIDEO TECHNICIAN:· We are now going off
14· the record at 4:08 p.m.
15· · · · · · · · · · · (Recess taken.)
16· · · · THE VIDEO TECHNICIAN:· The time is 4:13 p.m.
17· We are now back on the record.
18· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Can you read the question back
19· for the Mayor?
20· · · · · · · · · · · (Record read.)
21· · · · THE WITNESS:· And I would just say, Larry,
22· that the whole process was intended to be
23· independent.· COPA's the beginning of a process.
24· · · · · · · · ·It differentiates from the past

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·1· where the Superintendent's word was final.· Now
·2· it's the Police Board.· We're only in stage 2 at
·3· this moment.· But the original piece of that work
·4· is done by COPA.
·5· BY MR. ROGERS:
·6· · · · Q.· · Okay.· And, again, that was departure
·7· from ways of old where IPRA, which grew out of the
·8· Department of Internal Affairs, was conducting
·9· investigations of police officers, correct?
10· · · · A.· · It grew out of that as well as the
11· changes also that the Superintendent, as you noted,
12· could have -- take one of three steps.· But his
13· word is not final.· And it moves -- and it
14· continues to move forward.· And we're in the middle
15· of that right now.
16· · · · Q.· · Understood.
17· · · · · · · · ·I have fairly gone over the three
18· options of a response to the recommendation that
19· the Superintendent -- Superintendent has available
20· to him, true?
21· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection; calls for a legal
22· conclusion.· And the document speaks for itself.
23· BY MR. ROGERS:
24· · · · Q.· · Strike it.· I'll withdraw it.

·1· about what I said.· If you didn't understand it,
·2· then I got you right where I want you.· No. I
·3· mean, I -- the joke is -- on the serious point,
·4· Larry, is that as related to the earlier set of
·5· questions and all the confusion.
·6· · · · Q.· · Sure.· Mayor, I want to be fair to you.
·7· Okay?· We started by discussing the problems with
·8· the system.
·9· · · · A.· · Um-hmm.
10· · · · Q.· · Okay.· And -- that led to the creation
11· of an independent entity with a capital I, as you
12· phrased it, true?
13· · · · A.· · Um-hmm.
14· · · · Q.· · Okay.
15· · · · A.· · Yes.
16· · · · Q.· · The citizens of Chicago, including
17· Bettie Jones' family and Quintonio LeGrier's
18· family, are entitled to rely upon what was set
19· forth in the COPA ordinance in terms of the
20· response that the Superintendent can have to that,
21· true?
22· · · · A.· · Yes.
23· · · · Q.· · And the response as delineated in the
24· ordinance is specifically set forth to get away

Page 107
Page 109
·1· · · · · · · · ·We've gone over the COPA ordinances
·1· from the ways of old in part, true?
·2· as you understand it, true?
·2· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection to form of the
·3· · · · A.· · The ordinance of COPA -·3· question, calls for speculation.
·4· · · · Q.· · Yes.

·4· BY MR. ROGERS:
·5· · · · Q.· · You can answer.
·6· · · · Q.· · We've gone over the three delineated
·6· · · · A.· · Yes.· One of the ways.
·7· responses to the recommendation that the
·7· · · · Q.· · Some of the ways of old that we're
·8· Superintendent can have as set forth in the
·8· talking about involve the code of silence and the
·9· ordinance, true?
·9· thin blue line where officers protect and look
10· · · · A.· · Yes.
10· after other officers.
11· · · · Q.· · We've definitively identified that the
11· · · · THE COURT:· Well, I want to interrupt here
12· recommendation that was made by COPA was separation 12· for my purposes.· I think the code of silence is
13· of Officer Rialmo, true?
13· one thing.· But my understanding of the thin blue
14· · · · A.· · Yes.
14· line is that was a delineation of the police
15· · · · Q.· · Okay.
15· department, that they were the thin blue line that
16· · · · A.· · But I want to state that while we've
16· separated criminals from law-abiding citizens.
17· done that is that the process is not complete.· It
17· · · · · · · · ·Now, is that what you're asking? I
18· still moves on.· And that as any interpretation, I
18· don't think so.
19· think the Superintendent would seek judgment that
19· · · · MR. ROGERS:· I'll clarify what I mean by -20· he is within the confines of what the Superintendent
20· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· The thin blue line?
21· can and can't do as originally suggested by you.
21· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Yes.
22· · · · Q.· · I'm not -- I didn't understand the
22· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Because that came up some
23· latter part of that.
23· other time, I think has a different meaning.
24· · · · A.· · No, I'm just -- forget it.· Don't worry
24· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· Was it a movie that -·5· · · · A.· · -- and its origination?· Yes.

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·1· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· That's what the Superintendent

·1· those were unjustified shootings, true?

·2· said, but I know that there's cases describing the
·3· code of silence as a thin blue line.
·4· · · · MR. ROGERS:· The Mayor described it.· We'll
·5· over go that.
·6· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Show it to him.
·7· BY MR. ROGERS:
·8· · · · Q.· · If you pull out Exhibit 2.· Mr. Mayor,
·9· on December 9th of 2015, you gave a re- -- you gave

·2· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· I object to the form of the

10· remarks to City Council wherein you described -11· under the subheading Culture, you described the
12· thin blue line and code of silence.
13· · · · A.· · What page are you on?
14· · · · Q.· · I'm at page 6.· Let me know when you're
15· done.
16· · · · A.· · (Reviewing exhibit.)
17· · · · · · · · ·Yeah.

10· · · · THE COURT:· -- under IPRA followed by COPA.

18· · · · Q.· · Have you had a chance to review it?
19· · · · A.· · I've read the page 6.
20· · · · Q.· · Okay.· These remarks began with you
21· describing this as a defining moment for Chicago,
22· correct?
23· · · · A.· · Yes.
24· · · · Q.· · Okay.· You described in your remarks of

18· · · · A.· · Yes.

·3· question.· It started under IPRA.· COPA wasn't
·4· formed until about halfway through the
·5· investigation.
·6· · · · MR. SISKEL:· I also object to the form of the
·7· question and lack of foundation.
·8· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Well, it's -·9· · · · MR. ROGERS:· I'll re- -11· · · · MR. ROGERS:· I'll rephrase it.
12· BY MR. ROGERS:
13· · · · Q.· · We have the culmination of a two-year
14· investigation into the deaths of Quintonio LeGrier
15· and Bettie Jones that began with IPRA and concluded
16· with COPA deeming the shootings to be unjustifiable
17· by Officer Rialmo, true?
19· · · · Q.· · That was a two-year investigation, true?
20· · · · A.· · I don't remember the exact time, but
21· it -- I don't have the exact time, but it was a
22· period of time.
23· · · · Q.· · I showed you the testimony of
24· Superintendent Jones from a week ago --

Page 111
·1· December 9th, 2015 a culture with respect to the
·1· · · · A.· · Johnson.

Page 113

·2· police department, true?

·2· · · · Q.· · Johnson.· I'm sorry.

·3· · · · A.· · I describe -- it's under the Culture --

·3· · · · · · · · ·-- (continuing) where he said he

·4· the heading of Culture, correct.

·4· had not -- that was not the role of the police

·5· · · · Q.· · And you said, "As we move forward, I

·5· department, meaning to investigate police-involved

·6· am looking for a new leader of the Chicago Police

·6· shootings, true?

·7· Department to address the problems at the very

·7· · · · A.· · Yes.

·8· heart of the policing profession," true?

·8· · · · Q.· · I will also tell you that as of a week

·9· · · · A.· · That's the first paragraph, yes.

·9· ago he said he had not reviewed anything related to

10· · · · Q.· · And the second paragraph says, "This

10· COPA's investigation other than a summary; he had

11· problem is sometimes referred to as the thin blue

11· not reviewed the COPA report a week ago.· Okay?

12· line.· Other times it is referred to as the code of

12· · · · A.· · Yes.

13· silence."

13· · · · Q.· · Yet, on March 22nd, a week later, he is

14· · · · A.· · Um-hmm.

14· issuing findings on behalf of a fellow officer that

15· · · · Q.· · Then you go on to describe it as,

15· don't address the recommendations as permitted by

16· quote, "It is the tendency to ignore, deny, or in

16· statute, but instead exonerate a fellow officer.

17· some cases cover up the bad actions of a colleague

17· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· Objection to the form of the

18· or colleagues," end quote, true?

18· question.

19· · · · A.· · Yes.

19· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection to the form, calls for

20· · · · Q.· · Here we have COPA who investigated

20· a legal conclusion.

21· independently for a two-year period of time the

21· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· The form being --

22· circumstances surrounding the shooting deaths of

22· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· The only valid objection in a

23· Quintonio LeGrier and Bettie Jones and they came to 23· deposition, as anybody that's sat through more than
24· certain conclusions as an independent agency that

24· four of them, is really privilege.· So those all

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·1· are duly noted.

·1· acting within the jurisdiction of what a

·2· · · · · · · · ·You can answer it.

·2· Superintendent's role is in this process.

·3· · · · THE WITNESS:· I got to be honest.· I don't --

·3· BY MR. ROGERS:

·4· I'm being asked to judge the Superintendent's

·4· · · · Q.· · It sounds like you don't know one way

·5· letter -- 11-page letter?

·5· or the other.· You're assuming that.

·6· · · · MR. ROGERS:· I'm not asking --

·6· · · · A.· · I stand by what I just said.

·7· · · · THE WITNESS:· Is that -- is that what you're

·7· · · · Q.· · Well, are you saying you stand by

·8· asking me?

·8· Superintendent Eddie Johnson's findings?

·9· BY MR. ROGERS:

·9· · · · A.· · That's -- what I'm standing by is that

10· · · · Q.· · I'm not asking you to judge it.· I'm --

10· the process is being followed as I understand it,

11· I reviewed the statute and the process, and I

11· and we're in the middle of the process, and it

12· reviewed whether that was followed.· And I threw

12· hasn't played out yet.

13· out the 11-page letter, see no indication of any

13· · · · Q.· · Okay.

14· comment with regard to the recommendation of COPA. 14· · · · A.· · And I have -- I have not reviewed
15· I see nothing but 11 pages using expressly the word

15· either COPA's document until you gave it or the

16· "exonerated" as to Officer Rialmo.

16· Superintendent's because of the Chinese wall that

17· · · · · · · · ·And my question to you is in this

17· is separating us.

18· defining moment for Chicago, weren't we trying --

18· · · · Q.· · Mayor --

19· weren't you trying to get away from a circumstance

19· · · · A.· · And that's a piece of the independence.

20· where officers are investigating officers and

20· · · · Q.· · -- you've made it a point to identify

21· moving toward an independent investigation, one

21· that is a -- it's a multistep process that begins

22· that the public could trust, one that had

22· with COPA, goes to the Superintendent, then goes to

23· integrity, and one that we could rely upon?

23· the Police Board, correct?

24· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection.

24· · · · A.· · And directly different from the past.
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·1· BY MR. ROGERS:
·2· · · · Q.· · Wasn't that the goal?
·3· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection to the form of the
·4· question.
·5· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Answer over objection if you
·6· can.
·7· · · · THE WITNESS:· I don't -- I mean, I -- what I
·8· could say to you is the pro- -- the independence of
·9· the process is playing out as I'm sitting here
10· talking to you.· And that -- and that intention of
11· the changes we made is exactly what's playing out.
12· The COPA's -- IPRA/COPA, because it's in the middle
13· as we've now de- -- say, the Superintendent weighs
14· in on the judgment, gives his opinion, and that
15· moves forward.
16· · · · · · · · ·And so I would say to you, as I
17· described, I think, in one answer, Larry, what I
18· meant by capital I, it is having that independence,
19· and we're in the middle of it, and I'm not -- I
20· think the Superintendent, without having read his
21· 11 pages, or I'm sure he asked counsel, but I don't
22· want to make that leap of faith, I don't -- that he
23· is acting within the jurisdiction that is permitted
24· by the statute and the thinking behind it, he is

·1· · · · Q.· · You not only changed IPRA to COPA, you
·2· changed the Superintendent of police, true?
·3· · · · A.· · Yes.· And their role in this process.
·4· · · · Q.· · Correct.
·5· · · · · · · · ·You changed the role of the
·6· Superintendent as well as changing the
·7· Superintendent, correct?
·8· · · · A.· · Yes.
·9· · · · Q.· · No more business as usual was the goal,
10· correct?
11· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection to the form.
12· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· You can rephrase that.
13· BY MR. ROGERS:
14· · · · Q.· · You pointed out -15· · · · A.· · If you're asking me to weigh in on
16· Eddie Johnson, I think he's doing a very good job.
17· And I'll give you that.· That's what I believe he's
18· doing, and I think he's doing it in all those
19· aspects.
20· · · · Q.· · Well, at what?· At talking to the
21· citizens of the community, or at changing the
22· culture of the department so that independent
23· investigations are respected and given the credit
24· and integrity that they deserve?· That's the

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·1· question.

·1· Superintendent Johnson to COPA?

·2· · · · · · · · ·Again, I started the process and

·2· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection; lack of foundation.

·3· discussion by looking at what his role is in your

·3· BY MR. ROGERS:

·4· process, not my process.· And we went through that. ·4· · · · Q.· · The letter's there if you want to
·5· review it.
·5· None of which discerns an opportunity for him to
·6· reevaluate findings.

·6· · · · A.· · Do you want me to read the 11 pages

·7· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Judge, if there's a question --

·7· now?

·8· he's giving a speech.

·8· · · · Q.· · I would have liked you to have read it

·9· · · · · · · · ·You should ask the witness a

·9· before we got here, but ...

10· question.

10· · · · A.· · Do you want me to read the 11 pages?

11· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· I guess the objection's

11· Because I don't --

12· argumentative.

12· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Can we have a conversation off

13· · · · THE COURT:· Okay.· Well, let's everybody go

13· the record here?

14· back to what I said five minutes ago.· Anybody who

14· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Yes.

15· didn't hear me say the valid -- the only valid

15· · · · THE VIDEO TECHNICIAN:· We are now going off

16· objection in a deposition is privilege, raise their

16· the record at 4:30 p.m.

17· hand.

17· · · · · · · · · · · (Discussion off the record.)

18· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Okay.

18· · · · THE VIDEO TECHNICIAN:· We are now back on the

19· · · · THE COURT:· Okay.· So now let's get back to

19· record on the record at 4:32 p.m.

20· it.· So let's break them down, noncompound questions.

20· BY MR. ROGERS:

21· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Sure.

21· · · · Q.· · Mr. Mayor, as I understand it, as of

22· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· There was a change -- let's go

22· today's date, you have not reviewed Superintendent

23· back to maybe -- maybe it'll be simpler if you can

23· Eddie Johnson's March 22nd, 2018 response to COPA;

24· answer was the reason that you instituted COPA was

24· is that correct?

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Page 121

·1· so that it wasn't business as usual as you

·1· · · · A.· · I've read what's been in the newspapers.
·2· understood it?· I don't know if you can answer that
·2· · · · Q.· · Okay.· What is your understanding based
·3· or not.
·3· upon what you've read?
·4· · · · THE WITNESS:· Well, the one thing I would say
·4· · · · A.· · In short, he disagreed with the
·5· it was not mine so much as ours as a city, and that
·5· recommendations of what COPA recommended and
·6· led an effort, all of us from the task force to 50
·6· suggested.
·7· members of the City Council, to make wholesale
·7· · · · Q.· · He disagreed with the finding of -·8· changes.· So I would not describe it as mine. I
·8· that COPA made of it being a justifi- -·9· led that effort with a lot of other people to that
·9· unjustifiable shooting, correct?
10· effort.· And we're in the middle of a process on a
10· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection; asked and answered.
11· case specifically, and I don't think it's in my
11· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Well, I think you can answer
12· jurisdiction to make -- weigh in on that because I
12· it.· Very simple.· I think the answer would be the
13· think that's inappropriate to the spirit of making
13· same.
14· sure there's a Chinese wall.
14· · · · THE WITNESS:· It's what I said before.
15· · · · · · · · ·But I do think the process is being
15· · · · THE COURT:· Okay.
16· followed accordingly to a three-step process of
16· BY MR. ROGERS:
17· inde- -- that has independent review.
17· · · · Q.· · All right.· The first page of the
18· BY MR. ROGERS:
18· Superintendent's letter references a special order
19· · · · Q.· · Well, let me ask you this, Mayor:
19· that he is preparing his letter pursuant to.
20· Based upon what you've read in terms of the process 20· · · · · · · · ·Do you see that?
21· that was delineated in the statute specifically
21· · · · A.· · This right here?
22· where it speaks to Superintendent responding to the 22· · · · Q.· · Yes, sir.
23· recommendations, have you seen a response to the
23· · · · A.· · I see it.
24· recommendation in the March 22nd letter from
24· · · · Q.· · He says, "Therefore, according to

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·1· Special Order SO8-01-01."

·1· that the City of Chicago's Law Department sought to

·2· · · · · · · · ·Do you see that?

·2· secret that information?

·3· · · · A.· · Um-hmm.

·3· · · · A.· · I'm not --

·4· · · · Q.· · Is that a yes?

·4· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Same objection.

·5· · · · A.· · Yes, sir.

·5· · · · THE WITNESS:· I'm not able to answer the

·6· · · · Q.· · Let me show you Plaintiff's Exhibit

·6· question.

·7· No. 11 for identification purposes.· This is

·7· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· What do you mean by "secret,"

·8· Special Order SO8-01-01, correct?

·8· I guess?

·9· · · · A.· · Yes.

·9· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· Seal.

10· · · · Q.· · The purpose of this directive is set

10· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Seal under protective order.

11· forth in A.· It says, "Sets forth certain

11· · · · THE COURT:· Oh.

12· procedures relative to an allegation of misconduct

12· BY MR. ROGERS:

13· brought against a department member and investigated 13· · · · Q.· · Were you aware of that?
14· by the department."· Correct?

14· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Same objection.

15· · · · A.· · Yes.

15· · · · THE WITNESS:· I'm not -- I'm not sure I

16· · · · Q.· · COPA is independent of the police

16· understand the question.

17· department, true?

17· BY MR. ROGERS:

18· · · · A.· · Yes.

18· · · · Q.· · There was a motion brought by the City

19· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Therefore, when his letter of

19· of Chicago to have a protective order issued over

20· March 22nd, 2018 references this special order,

20· Superintendent Johnson's March 22nd letter.· Were

21· this special order is not applicable to COPA, true?

21· you aware of that?

22· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection; calls for a legal

22· · · · A.· · Not to my recollection.

23· conclusion.

23· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Were you aware that the City of

24· · · · THE COURT:· Does the special order --

24· Chicago moved to have a protective order entered
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·1· · · · THE WITNESS:· I'm not sure -- I'm not -- I'm

·1· over Superintendent Eddie Johnson's discovery
·2· not sure I can answer that question.· I'm not a
·2· deposition?
·3· lawyer.
·3· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection; beyond the scope.
·4· BY MR. ROGERS:
·4· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Where are you going to go with
·5· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Again, we went through Exhibit 6,
·5· that?
·6· which talked about the different jurisdictions, one
·6· · · · MR. ROGERS:· I'm just trying to -·7· being COPA for things like police-involved
·7· transparency, openness.
·8· shootings -·8· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· I guess is he aware of what
·9· · · · A.· · Yes, we did.
·9· the lawyers -- the City lawyers did, is that what
10· · · · Q.· · -- other misconduct being department10· you're asking him?
11· driven investigations, correct?
11· · · · MR. SISKEL:· And, Judge, transparency,
12· · · · A.· · Yes, we did.
12· openness was not one of the four identified topics
13· · · · Q.· · Okay.· My last few questions, Mayor,
13· for this deposition that you ruled were -14· relate to your knowledge and awareness of efforts
14· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Actually, if you review the
15· to secret information in this litigation.
15· transcript, the transparency went way back.· And if
16· · · · · · · · ·Were you aware of -- that the City
16· he's aware of what the lawyers did, he's aware of
17· of Chicago moved to secret Superintendent Johnson's 17· it.· If he's not, he's not.· It's that simple.
18· March 22nd letter?
18· · · · THE WITNESS:· I would just say that not
19· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection; beyond the scope.
19· aware, and any issue related to transparency was
20· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· If he knows.
20· usually around videotapes of other incidents, but
21· · · · THE WITNESS:· No ability to answer the
21· not this.· I have no -- I have no idea.· I'm not
22· question.· I don't know.
22· aware.
23· BY MR. ROGERS:
23· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Okay.
24· · · · Q.· · You don't know -- you were not aware
24· · · · THE WITNESS:· Sorry.

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·1· BY MR. ROGERS:
·2· · · · Q.· · And had you made a request that your
·3· deposition be sealed -- that a protective order be
·4· entered as to your deposition?
·5· · · · A.· · Am I aware of mine?
·6· · · · Q.· · Yes.
·7· · · · A.· · Yes.
·8· · · · Q.· · Okay.· With -- did you request that
·9· there be a protective order as to your deposition?
10· · · · A.· · Did I?· I don't -- I'm not a lawyer. I
11· don't handle that.
12· · · · Q.· · Okay.· But you were aware that the City
13· lawyers had sought that a protective order be
14· entered as to your discovery deposition?
15· · · · A.· · In a general way.
16· · · · Q.· · Yes, in a general way?
17· · · · A.· · Yes, in a general way.
18· · · · Q.· · All right.· You met with the Bettie
19· Jones family after this occurrence, correct?
20· · · · A.· · Yes.
21· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Had you ever gone to the
22· premises where this shooting occurred?
23· · · · A.· · Not to my knowledge, no.
24· · · · Q.· · Okay.· You made some public statements

Page 128

·1· was -- should be exonerated -- he should be
·2· exonerated of that charge?
·3· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection; compound, lack of
·4· foundation.
·5· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Those aren't valid -- again,
·6· you're not claiming privilege.· Those are the only
·7· valid discovery objections.
·8· · · · · · · · ·You can answer it.· If you -·9· · · · THE WITNESS:· I'm going to -- I know what the
10· process is, and the process requires a Chinese
11· wall, and we're in the middle of the process.· So
12· I'm not going to weigh in on any decision that's in
13· the middle of the process because I think it would
14· be inappropriate.· And we set it up specifically to
15· be a process to have independence not only from the
16· police, but also from elected officials for a whole
17· host of reasons.· So I'm not -- I think it would be
18· inappropriate to weigh in.
19· BY MR. ROGERS:
20· · · · Q.· · Currently there's a difference of
21· con- -- of opinion between COPA and Superintendent
22· Johnson as to findings relating to this police23· involved shooting, correct?
24· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· Objection.

Page 127

·1· about the fact that the shooting of Bettie Jones
·2· was an accident, correct?
·3· · · · A.· · I haven't seen any comments that would
·4· refresh my memory.
·5· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Well, are you aware that this
·6· was deemed an accidental shooting, that there was
·7· no intent by Officer Rialmo to shoot Bettie Jones?
·8· · · · A.· · I'm not sure how you -- yes.
·9· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Bettie Jones answered the
10· doorbell when the officer rang the doorbell.· She
11· indicated there was a problem upstairs.· And
12· minutes later she was shot.
13· · · · · · · · ·Are you aware of that?
14· · · · A.· · Yes, I am.
15· · · · Q.· · Okay.· You've given statements about
16· the importance of police officers protecting
17· innocent individuals.
18· · · · · · · · ·Do you recall that?
19· · · · A.· · I've said that probably many times, but
20· I don't know related to this case.
21· · · · Q.· · Okay.· With respect to this particular
22· shooting, do you support and stand with
23· Superintendent Johnson's conclusion that the
24· shooting death of Bettie Jones by Officer Rialmo

Page 129

·1· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection to the form.
·2· BY MR. ROGERS:
·3· · · · Q.· · You can answer.
·4· · · · A.· · What I've read in the papers, they have
·5· two different opinions.
·6· · · · Q.· · Okay.· And you don't want to interfere
·7· with that process and render an opinion on that
·8· issue at this time; is that correct?
·9· · · · A.· · I'm trying to be -- well, this is a
10· legal one.· I'm trying to be faithful to the
11· purpose of having a Chinese wall, but especially
12· given that it's not concluded.
13· · · · Q.· · At the conclusion of that process, will
14· it be fair to ask you questions about the process,
15· whether it was followed and the conclusions from -16· · · · A.· · That's out of my jurisdiction. I
17· really -- I don't know, Larry, if you could ask me
18· it.
19· · · · Q.· · Well, I'm trying to ask you the
20· questions now.· You're telling me you can't answer
21· them now.
22· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection.· You're asking -23· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Well, we'll address that issue
24· when it comes up later.

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·1· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Thank you, Judge.

Page 130

Page 132
·1· attorney for -- representing the City in this -- in

·2· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Okay.· All right.· I'll yield to

·2· the LeGrier/Jones versus Rialmo shooting attempted

·3· the other lawyers at this time.

·3· to file a -- an action for contribution in this

·4· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· All right.· Just -- I'll be

·4· case?

·5· much faster than anybody else.

·5· · · · A.· · I don't know what that means.

·6· · · · THE VIDEO TECHNICIAN:· Will you hand him a

·6· · · · Q.· · An action -- it was referred to as a

·7· microphone?

·7· lawsuit against the LeGrier estate in which they

·8· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· Oh.· I've never wore one

·8· would try to assess -- put some of the responsibility

·9· before.

·9· on Quintonio LeGrier for the death of Bettie Jones.

10· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Thank you, Mayor.

10· · · · · · · · ·Do you recall that?

11· · · · THE WITNESS:· Thanks, Larry.

11· · · · A.· · I know what I've read in the paper.

12· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· I've actually had one.

12· · · · Q.· · Isn't -- didn't you make a phone call

13· · · · · · · · · · EXAMINATION

13· to Quintonio LeGrier's father apologizing for the

14· BY MR. BRODSKY:

14· City's efforts to do that?

15· · · · Q.· · All right, Mayor.· My name's Joel

15· · · · A.· · Yes, I did.

16· Brodsky.· I represent Officer Rialmo.· I'm going

16· · · · Q.· · Okay.· And you did that because, I

17· to be much briefer than Mr. Rogers.

17· think you said in the -- you made a public

18· · · · · · · · ·Okay.· If it just -- starting from

18· statement that you thought that his -- the City's

19· this point, you've said that you didn't review the

19· filing this contribution action would have been --

20· COPA summary report or Superintendent Johnson's 20· was insensitive, I think is the word you used?
21· nonconcurrence letter because of a Chinese wall,

21· · · · A.· · Yeah.· I think the way I would describe

22· correct?

22· the reason I reached out is, as I did and I do in

23· · · · A.· · That is correct.

23· other instances --

24· · · · Q.· · Okay.· And --

24· · · · Q.· · No.· I was just asking is that the -Page 131

Page 133

·1· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· And by the way, for purposes
·2· here, the Chinese wall is a term of art where
·3· different entities -- different parts of government
·4· are kept separate findings so that there's no
·5· interference.
·6· · · · · · · · ·Is that a fair summary of the
·7· Chinese wall as you understand it, Mr. Mayor?
·8· · · · THE WITNESS:· As I'm trying to use it, the
·9· wall to make sure that the process is in a zone
10· free of political influence or somehow any
11· political impact in any way.· So I've stepped -- I
12· consciously don't -- we're in the middle of it, so
13· I don't think it's appropriate.
14· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Well, you've been using it,
15· and -16· · · · THE WITNESS:· Yes, that is how I -17· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Make sure that's your
18· understanding.
19· · · · THE WITNESS:· Yeah, there's a wall between -20· · · · THE COURT:· I see.
21· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· That's my understanding too.
22· · · · THE COURT:· Okay.· Go ahead.
23· BY MR. BRODSKY:
24· · · · Q.· · All right.· Do you recall when the

·1· · · · THE COURT:· Let him finish.
·2· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· I was just -·3· · · · THE COURT:· Were you finished with your
·4· answer?
·5· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· Okay.· Please.· Please.· I'm
·6· sorry to interrupt you.
·7· · · · THE WITNESS:· That's okay.
·8· · · · · · · · ·In other places -- in other contexts
·9· and situations where a family have lost a loved
10· one, I try to offer a voice of -- be a person of
11· support.· And given I had talked to the family
12· before, I just wanted to call and say I was
13· thinking of them.· In that spirit -14· BY MR. BRODSKY:
15· · · · Q.· · But your public statement was that it
16· was insensitive of the City to want to file this
17· contribution action, correct?
18· · · · A.· · My statement speaks for itself.
19· · · · Q.· · Why do you believe it was insensitive
20· for the City to file this contribution action?
21· · · · A.· · Look, I'm not a -- I'm not a lawyer, as
22· I think we've well established by now, and I don't
23· understand the litigation process.
24· · · · Q.· · Okay.

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·1· · · · A.· · But as a husband and father, a son and
·2· a brother, a sibling, you have people that have had
·3· a loss and pain, and I wanted to express myself to
·4· that part.· I don't deal with the legal part.
·5· That's not my job.· And I'm not a lawyer.· And I -·6· · · · Q.· · But you -- did you have any role then
·7· in getting the City to stop trying to file that
·8· contribution action?
·9· · · · A.· · I think my words spoke for themselves.
10· · · · Q.· · So did your words then cause the
11· City -12· · · · THE COURT:· I'm sorry.· Is the question
13· presented to the Mayor is that did you reach out
14· to the attorneys and tell them to not pursue this
15· course of action?
16· BY MR. BRODSKY:
17· · · · Q.· · Yeah.· In other words, did you have
18· anything to do in that decision?
19· · · · MR. SISKEL:· And I'm going to object to the
20· extent it calls for privileged information.
21· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· How could that be privileged?
22· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Well, if you're asking about -23· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Well, I think the Mayor said
24· that his words were enough to cause the action to

Page 136

·1· for privileged information.
·2· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· It's not really attorney·3· client.
·4· · · · THE WITNESS:· I don't know if I -- I don't
·5· remember if I called counsel or not.
·6· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· Okay.· But obviously -·7· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· That's as far as it goes
·8· because I -·9· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· Okay.
10· · · · THE WITNESS:· Okay.
11· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· If he doesn't recall -12· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· I think you've answered it
13· sufficiently.· And I think any further inquiry, I
14· would agree with counsel, that would be privileged
15· information.
16· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· I'm just -- I mean, if he
17· doesn't recall, he doesn't recall.
18· BY MR. BRODSKY:
19· · · · Q.· · Okay.· What did you say to Quintonio
20· LeGrier's father when you called him to discuss the
21· action?
22· · · · A.· · I can't ex- -- I can't remember
23· specifically.· But I think the general spirit what
24· I expressed is that I felt like they had been

Page 135

Page 137

·1· cease.
·2· · · · THE WITNESS:· No.· I said my words spoke for
·3· themselves.
·4· BY MR. BRODSKY:
·5· · · · Q.· · So you -- by your words, you caused
·6· then the City to with- -- stop that action?
·7· · · · A.· · I said I expressed myself both to the
·8· family and to the public.
·9· · · · Q.· · Okay.· And do you believe that that's
10· what got the City to stop filing that?
11· · · · A.· · I would be just guessing.
12· · · · Q.· · Okay.· You have no idea then why the
13· City withdrew its efforts to file the contribution
14· action; is that what you're saying?
15· · · · A.· · That would actually be an appropriate
16· question for the counsel.· My role as the Mayor was
17· to express myself to the family and to the public.
18· · · · Q.· · Well, what I'm trying to get at is did
19· you have any way in instructing the City's lawyers
20· to withdraw it?· That's all I'm asking.· It's a -21· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection.
22· BY MR. BRODSKY:
23· · · · Q.· · -- yes or no or -24· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection to the extent it calls

·1· through enough.· And as one who has talked to him
·2· before, I wanted him to understand I was sensitive
·3· to what the family's been through.
·4· · · · Q.· · Okay.· But you wouldn't -- don't think
·5· there would be any -- are you of the opinion
·6· there's something wrong in the legal process
·7· distributing -- or attributing the fault for the
·8· shooting among all the -- those involved?
·9· · · · A.· · I don't have the authority or the
10· background or the education to weigh in and judge
11· on that because I'm not a lawyer.· So I don't know
12· the process.· I know what I know as a husband and a
13· father.
14· · · · Q.· · Okay.· And you under- -- okay.· You
15· understand that by not filing the contribution
16· action, it takes -- it takes this into an all-or17· nothing type of situation as opposed to a
18· distribution of the fault?
19· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection to form and -20· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· Or if you -- I'm asking if he
21· knows.
22· · · · THE COURT:· Well, you have to have -23· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· It's not a legal -24· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· He said he's not a lawyer.

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Page 140

·1· · · · THE WITNESS:· I'm not lawyer.
·2· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· I'm just asking if he knows.
·3· You don't have to be a lawyer to know contribution.
·4· · · · THE WITNESS:· I don't even know what you just
·5· said in all due respect, Mr. Brodsky.· I don't
·6· understand that.
·7· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· Okay.
·8· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· And is that because you don't
·9· have legal training, Mr. Mayor?
10· · · · THE WITNESS:· Yes.· And there's enough
11· lawyers in this room.· But I do not have legal
12· training.· I was not a lawyer.· I'm not a lawyer.
13· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· I think that's where it ends.
14· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· All right.· So -- all right.
15· · · · THE COURT:· Go on, Mr. Brodsky.
16· BY MR. BRODSKY:
17· · · · Q.· · So it was just an emotional as opposed
18· to a policy type of decision to call him?
19· · · · A.· · It was an expression -- in the past,
20· since I was even Mayor elect, I have reached out
21· to loved ones who've lost a loved one.· And I
22· sometimes have called them.· When they want, I
23· sometimes have visited them.· And this was
24· consistent with that as it was consistent with the

·1· · · · A.· · Couldn't weigh in it.
·2· · · · Q.· · Okay.
·3· · · · THE COURT:· And that's because of the Chinese
·4· wall; is that correct?
·5· · · · THE WITNESS:· I haven't evaluated it.· I've
·6· had -- that -- what I do know is that independent
·7· entities help set up that process of training for
·8· all the hirees.· I don't go through and actually
·9· kick the tires on it.· So I have no idea except for
10· I know they went through training before they were
11· hired.
12· BY MR. BRODSKY:
13· · · · Q.· · You don't know if the training is
14· sufficient for -- to become a forensic investigator
15· or not, though?
16· · · · A.· · It's not -- it's not for me to weigh in
17· on that.· I -- my understanding is a lot of experts
18· were consulted before the training was put
19· together, and the training was done, which is also
20· different than had been in the past.
21· · · · Q.· · Do you know why the City doesn't want
22· to release the independent con- -- you just said
23· they consulted people -- why these consultants'
24· reports are sealed, why the City doesn't want to

Page 139

Page 141

·1· original phone call.
·2· · · · Q.· · Okay.· All right.· On December -- so
·3· this -- the shooting in this case took place on,
·4· just in context, December 26, 2015.
·5· · · · · · · · ·Have you had any involvement in any
·6· decision regarding either assigning, reassigning,
·7· disciplining, or transferring Officer Robert Rialmo
·8· since that date?
·9· · · · A.· · No.
10· · · · Q.· · All right.· Regarding -- this is now
11· going to COPA.· Do you have any knowledge of the
12· investigatory competency of any of COPA's
13· investigators?
14· · · · A.· · No.
15· · · · Q.· · So you wouldn't know if they were top
16· notch invest- -- forensic investigators or just
17· mere amateurs?
18· · · · A.· · I have no knowledge of individuals. I
19· have no knowledge of the process at all -- at all.
20· · · · Q.· · Okay.
21· · · · A.· · But I know that they've gone through a
22· process.· But I have no knowledge.
23· · · · Q.· · But you don't know if it's a process
24· that's reliable or unreliable?

·1· release them?
·2· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection.
·3· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Well, they're going to weigh
·4· in -·5· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· That was Lieutenant
·6· Harrington's.
·7· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Pardon me?
·8· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· Lieutenant Harrington's report.
·9· · · · THE COURT:· Right.· And I reviewed those
10· reports.
11· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· Right.
12· · · · THE COURT:· And they were independent
13· consultants' reports -14· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· Right.
15· · · · THE COURT:· -- which I don't know if the
16· Mayor has any idea about, but they were independent
17· consultant reports, which is, in any other case,
18· don't have to be disclosed unless that person
19· that's the independent consultant is retained as a
20· Rule 213(f)(3) expert.
21· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· Unless they want to release it.
22· I'm just asking him if there's any reason that they
23· don't want to release it.
24· · · · THE COURT:· He's not the attorney.· So if

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·1· he -·2· · · · THE WITNESS:· I have no idea.
·3· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· He's the chief officer.· Okay.
·4· All right.
·5· BY MR. BRODSKY:
·6· · · · Q.· · All right.· Regarding the process, the
·7· three-step process of -- set up by the COPA
·8· ordinance, there's also -- the City is also bound,
·9· isn't it not, by a Fraternal Order of Police
10· contract in how officers are disciplined?
11· · · · A.· · There's a contract.
12· · · · Q.· · And that covers officer discipline,
13· correct?
14· · · · A.· · There's a section of it.
15· · · · Q.· · And isn't the City also bound by that
16· contract as well as the COPA ordinance in how it
17· proceeds in the disciplinary process?
18· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection.· It calls -19· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· If he -20· · · · MR. SISKEL:· -- for a legal conclusion.
21· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· If he knows.
22· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· I think it's actually been
23· asked and answered that there's a contract that has
24· a legal --

·1· · · · A.· · That is correct, Mr. Brodsky.
·2· · · · Q.· · Okay.· You'd agree that there's a
·3· difference between an investigation and a
·4· conclusion or finding, right?· So doing the
·5· investigation is not the same thing as making
·6· the conclusion of the facts found in that
·7· investigation?
·8· · · · A.· · Okay.· I see one is dependent on the
·9· other, but that's an assumption.
10· · · · Q.· · But -- I mean, they're dependent on
11· each other, but they're separate, correct?
12· · · · A.· · As a legal document?
13· · · · THE COURT:· Let's stop.· I'm going to
14· interrupt everybody.
15· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· Okay.
16· · · · THE COURT:· We're talking about this case in
17· particular.
18· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· Right.
19· · · · THE COURT:· So the question you're asking the
20· Mayor is there's an investigation which will lead
21· to findings, is that correct?· And there's two
22· steps; one is the investigation to gather the
23· facts; two, report findings.
24· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· Correct.

Page 143

·1· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· A legal -·2· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· That has how officers are
·3· disciplined, if any.
·4· · · · THE WITNESS:· There's a contract, there's a
·5· COPA ordinance, and we follow both.
·6· BY MR. BRODSKY:
·7· · · · Q.· · Okay.· And the COPA ordinance -- I
·8· mean, the FOP contract may have some impact on
·9· how the Superintendent receives and responds to
10· recommendations from COPA, if you know?
11· · · · A.· · I don't know the back- -- I haven't
12· gone through the contract here.
13· · · · Q.· · Okay.· I know -14· · · · A.· · I can't weigh in on that.
15· · · · Q.· · And as far as the COPA rules and
16· regulations, they haven't been shown to you either
17· today, correct?
18· · · · A.· · The COPA?
19· · · · Q.· · Rules and regulations as opposed to the
20· ordinance, the administrative rules.
21· · · · A.· · That is correct.
22· · · · Q.· · So you don't know how those rules would
23· weigh in on how the Superintendent reviews and
24· responds to the COPA recommendations?

Page 145

·1· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Okay.· How about that?
·2· · · · THE WITNESS:· That would -- that sounds -·3· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· As opposed to Mr. Rogers'
·4· question about the -- COPA doing the -- being the
·5· independent investigation as opposed to.· That's
·6· why I asked it.
·7· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· I think he answered it very
·8· succinctly.
·9· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· I think so.· That's why I asked
10· it.· All right.· I think that's -- that's it. I
11· have nothing else.
12· · · · THE WITNESS:· Thank you.
13· · · · · · · · · · EXAMINATION
14· BY MR. FOUTRIS:
15· · · · Q.· · Mayor, it's been a while.· Let me
16· introduce myself again.· I'm Bill Foutris. I
17· represent the LeGrier estate.· Mr. LeGrier's in the
18· courtroom.· I'm going to have some questions for
19· you related to this case.· It'll be a little
20· scattershot because you've been asked a lot of
21· questions.· So there's follow-ups to things that
22· you were questioned about earlier, and I'm going to
23· follow up with some things that you said earlier.
24· I'm not going to tread the same ground.· Okay?

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·1· · · · A.· · Yes.
·2· · · · Q.· · All right.· So just to be clear, you've
·3· mentioned this Chinese wall and this process that
·4· instituted this Chinese wall.· I've not seen any
·5· ordinance or rule or regulation that institutes
·6· such a Chinese wall.
·7· · · · · · · · ·Could you please explain for us what
·8· it is that you mean by this Chinese wall, where it
·9· came up, why you're following it?
10· · · · A.· · Well, to make sure that the process
11· starting from the investigation to the
12· Superintendent's actions all the way to the
13· decisions made by the Police Board are inde- -14· are truly independent and meant and intended to
15· be independent from the Mayor, all City Council
16· members, others, so it's truly an independent
17· investigation to get to the bottom of a situation,
18· a case, what happened, and then to draw those
19· judgments, and then to draw -- whatever the
20· Superintendent does and then whatever the Police
21· Board is independent of everybody else.
22· · · · · · · · ·And that's why I would say that
23· there's an attempt to make sure that there's no
24· other influences outside of the effort by COPA and

·1· that's being done from the investigatory standpoint.
·2· · · · Q.· · Have you been getting memos regarding
·3· this case?
·4· · · · A.· · No.
·5· · · · Q.· · Did you get memos about the media
·6· coverage of this within the first few days of
·7· the incident?
·8· · · · A.· · While I was in Havana?
·9· · · · Q.· · When you came back.
10· · · · A.· · I don't -- I can't remember.
11· · · · Q.· · How did you get the phone numbers and
12· the information related to the LeGrier estate,
13· meaning his parents?
14· · · · A.· · I can't remember how I got them, but my
15· staff ...
16· · · · Q.· · Can you give me that?
17· · · · · · · · ·We don't have any exhibit numbers,
18· but I'll just write on this -- I think we're up to
19· No. 12.
20· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· For identification, what is
21· this?
22· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· For identification, this is
23· Bates Nos. FCRL 2316 through 2323.· This is a
24· To/From from the Mayor's office -- actually, it's

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·1· then the Police Superintendent and then the Police
·2· Board to try to find a way to get to the bottom of
·3· what happened and make judgments accordingly.
·4· · · · Q.· · So I think what you're telling us is
·5· that you made the deliberate judgment to keep out
·6· of the fray in a nutshell; is that right?
·7· · · · A.· · In a nutshell.
·8· · · · Q.· · So why have you kept up with the media
·9· reports?
10· · · · A.· · Why I have read what's in the paper?
11· · · · Q.· · Yeah.· If you want to keep out of this,
12· why are you reading anything at all about this?
13· · · · A.· · Well, it's in the media, and it would
14· be -- it doesn't mean that I read everything in the
15· media, but it would be strange not to.
16· · · · Q.· · You've read -17· · · · A.· · And -18· · · · Q.· · I'm sorry.· You've read stuff related
19· to this from the inception of this case until
20· today; is that right?
21· · · · A.· · Yes.
22· · · · Q.· · How's that consistent with the Chinese
23· wall?
24· · · · A.· · Because I'm not reading anything else

·1· from Janey Rountree.
·2· · · · THE COURT:· Was it -- from Janey Rountree to
·3· who?
·4· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· The Mayor, I understand.· And
·5· that's what I'm going to ask.
·6· BY MR. FOUTRIS:
·7· · · · Q.· · So do you have that document in front
·8· of you, sir?
·9· · · · A.· · Yes.
10· · · · Q.· · Do you recognize what that is?
11· · · · A.· · It's a memo -12· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Is that a -13· · · · A.· · -- with a -- with a -- contact
14· information and then some background.
15· · · · Q.· · Okay.· It's an eight-page memo from
16· Janey Rountree to you; is that right?
17· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection; mischaracterizes the
18· exhibit.
19· · · · THE COURT:· Well, it's an eight-page
20· document?
21· · · · THE WITNESS:· There's a -- okay.
22· BY MR. FOUTRIS:
23· · · · Q.· · Is this a document that was provided to
24· you at the outset of this case so that you would

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·1· have the information related to Quintonio LeGrier's
·2· parents?
·3· · · · A.· · Well, first of all, there's a one-page
·4· memo.· Everything else, I think, is an articles.
·5· But that said -- because I just had come back -- I
·6· don't know the date of this.
·7· · · · · · · · ·As I said, I was -- two things.· One
·8· is I was out of -- I was with my family in Cuba.
·9· · · · · · · · ·Second is I've made a practice since
10· being Mayor elect to try to reach out to loved ones
11· who lost a loved one.
12· · · · · · · · ·And this is -- this memo is making
13· sure I have the information so I can reach them and
14· understanding.
15· · · · Q.· · Right.· And the purpose of this Roman
16· numeral number I on page 1 says, "You are calling
17· the parents of Quintonio LeGrier."
18· · · · · · · · ·Did I read that correctly?
19· · · · A.· · At the top of -- yes.
20· · · · Q.· · Okay.· And the "you" would be you,
21· literally you, correct?
22· · · · A.· · My assumption is yes, but it doesn't
23· say to -- it's not a memo written to me.· It says
24· Contact.· But my assumption is yes, since I'm

·1· staff will sometimes provide either articles or
·2· other types of background information if I'm going
·3· to make a call of this nature.
·4· BY MR. FOUTRIS:
·5· · · · Q.· · Okay.· This is what I'm driving at.
·6· You've indicated throughout the last two and a half
·7· hours that you've read things related to this case
·8· in the media, whether it be the COPA report, the
·9· Superintendent's findings, or whatnot, fair?
10· · · · A.· · Yes.
11· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Is that something that you've
12· done of your own accord by just going online and
13· reading something, or has it been provided to you
14· by your staff by way of a memo like what you have
15· in front of you right now?
16· · · · A.· · Well -17· · · · Q.· · Or is it a combination?
18· · · · A.· · Well, this is totally different from
19· and not related to the COPA process.· I don't -20· I would say -- let me say this.· If you -- what
21· you're say- -- if you -- immediately upon returning
22· and reaching out to a family was one of an
23· expression, and somebody who has three children,
24· a spouse, et cetera, what happens is once the

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·1· making the phone call.· But that's an assumption.

·1· investigation starts, et cetera, that's a different
·2· · · · Q.· · Okay.· And there are articles attached
·2· matter by nature and by conduct.
·3· to this from the Chicago Tribune, or at least
·3· · · · Q.· · I asked you something different.
·4· summaries, as well as certain printouts of these
·4· · · · A.· · Okay.
·5· articles; is that fair?
·5· · · · Q.· · What I asked you -·6· · · · A.· · So there's a -- this one page.· An
·6· · · · A.· · I -·7· article.· An article.· And an article.· Two to
·7· · · · Q.· · -- is the information you've gotten
·8· three articles.
·8· about this case that we've talked about in the
·9· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Would you agree with me that the
·9· last two and a half hours, is that based on your
10· purpose of providing you with these articles was to 10· own edification by looking at stuff online on your
11· familiarize you with the events as being reported
11· own or a paper, an actual physical paper -- I don't
12· in the press?
12· know if you do that anymore -- or was it by way of
13· · · · A.· · One is, again, I was out of the
13· a memo like this?
14· country.· Two, this is a normal practice since I
14· · · · A.· · I'm -15· make phone calls often to family members or visit
15· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection to the form, vague.
16· with them.· It's contextual.· That's all.
16· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Also I think it was about five
17· · · · Q.· · Is what I said correct?
17· times compound.
18· · · · A.· · You can -- can you repeat it?
18· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· Yeah.· Just trying to find
19· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· Sure.
19· out -- look, let me just withdraw that.· What
20· · · · · · · · ·Repeat it, please.
20· I'm -- what I'm trying -21· · · · · · · · · · · (Record read.)
21· · · · THE COURT:· How did -- how did you find out
22· · · · THE WITNESS:· I don't know why -- what I can -22· about this case after -- so let's go back this way.
23· I can't speak to that.· But I can speak is what I
23· Let me see if I can do this.
24· know -- what I try to make a practice of.· And the
24· · · · · · · · ·So when you had the good fortune to

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·1· be in Cuba with your family, when you came back,

·1· BY MR. FOUTRIS:
·2· you received a -- what's marked as exhibit
·2· · · · Q.· · I understand.· Okay.
·3· whatever, with background -·3· · · · · · · · ·So you have -- and just to go
·4· · · · THE WITNESS:· 12.
·4· through that.· You have not communicated with -·5· · · · THE COURT:· -- with background information as
·5· after the initial information provided to you by -·6· to the incident with the numbers on there so you
·6· by Acting Superintendent Escalante, you never got
·7· can contact the family regarding the loss of a
·7· any further information from him regarding this
·8· loved one based on that information that was
·8· particular matter, true?
·9· attached thereto; is that correct?
·9· · · · A.· · I don't know how to answer that except
10· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Right.
10· for I know that the first way I found out on
11· · · · THE WITNESS:· My first understanding of this
11· anything was from the Acting Superintendent.· Do -12· case and the entire situation was when Acting
12· does that mean like when I'm back four, five days,
13· Superintendent John Escalante reached me.· And that 13· he told me some update?· I don't -- can't answer
14· was the first time I was notified about anything.
14· that question.
15· And he -- I talked to him numerous times over the
15· · · · Q.· · Okay.· After the first few days, so
16· day and a half I was still in Cuba till I got back,
16· after December of 2015, to the best of your
17· but to get information.
17· recollection, did you have any further
18· · · · · · · · ·This was upon -- I don't know the
18· communications of any kind with Mr. Escalante
19· date of this.· I don't know the timing of this
19· regarding this case?
20· memo.· But based on memory, a short time afterwards, 20· · · · A.· · I'd be guessing, so I can't do that.
21· I called the family.
21· I don't know.
22· · · · THE COURT:· And once the investigation was
22· · · · Q.· · To the best of your recollection?
23· underway, what, if anything, did you do to gain any
23· · · · A.· · I -- I don't know.
24· further information about this incident?
24· · · · Q.· · All right.
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·1· · · · THE WITNESS:· I usually read what was in the
·2· paper.
·3· BY MR. FOUTRIS:
·4· · · · Q.· · Okay.· So you -- you do not have any
·5· recollection of being provided a memo with articles
·6· attached to it similar to what you have in front of
·7· you after the investigation began; is that fair?
·8· · · · A.· · I don't have a -- the only -- if you
·9· show me stuff, the other stuff, I -10· · · · Q.· · I don't know if it exists.· That's what
11· I'm asking.
12· · · · A.· · No.· My understanding of this is both
13· by phone calls to Acting Superintendent John
14· Escalante when I'm in Cuba.· This is an attempt to
15· reach out to family separate from the investigation.
16· · · · · · · · ·As the investigation's going on, I
17· have no role, COPA, Superintendent, or the Police
18· Board.
19· · · · Q.· · Okay.
20· · · · THE COURT:· Let the record reflect that when
21· the Mayor said that this was an effort to reach
22· out, he was indicating to Exhibit 12.
23· · · · THE WITNESS:· Yeah.· To the family.· I'm
24· sorry.

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·1· · · · A.· · That's the honest answer.
·2· · · · Q.· · From the time that Mr. Johnson was
·3· appointed Superintendent until today, have you ever
·4· discussed with him any aspect of this case?· And by
·5· "this case," I'm talking about the shooting death
·6· of Quintonio LeGrier and Bettie Jones.
·7· · · · A.· · To my knowledge, no.
·8· · · · Q.· · Has anybody in your administration or
·9· specifically in your office ever reached out or
10· communicated to Superintendent Johnson with respect
11· to this matter ever?
12· · · · A.· · I have no idea -- no idea.
13· · · · Q.· · Has anybody ever done that at your
14· direction?
15· · · · A.· · No.
16· · · · Q.· · Has -- have you ever learned -17· · · · A.· · That's inconsistent.
18· · · · Q.· · Have you ever learned from anybody,
19· whether it be rumors or anything -- and I'll get
20· into it if there are rumors.· But have you ever
21· learned from any source that somebody from your
22· office reached out to the Superintendent regarding
23· this case since he's been appointed?
24· · · · A.· · I have no idea.

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·1· · · · Q.· · Now -- and that's what I was driving at
·2· is with respect to this Chinese wall.· Am I -- and
·3· I don't think it was clear.· But the Chinese wall
·4· that you described, that's something that you
·5· decided to do of your own volition?
·6· · · · A.· · I don't think that's accurate.
·7· · · · Q.· · Where does it derive from?· Where's the
·8· authority for it?
·9· · · · A.· · I think the -- when you say
10· "independent," it's not only obviously
11· independent of the police department, it's
12· independent from anybody in the Mayor -- from
13· myself or any other kind of political influence.
14· That's what's -15· · · · Q.· · Okay.· So it's your interpretation of
16· the ordinance that you're supposed to stay away
17· from the investigation while it's pending; is that
18· fair?
19· · · · A.· · All the way through the process.
20· · · · Q.· · Okay.· And the process you're talking
21· about is from the time that the shooting occurs
22· until the time that the Police Board renders a
23· verdict?
24· · · · A.· · The process from the time that the

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·1· · · · Q.· · Right.
·2· · · · A.· · I have -- I have no idea.
·3· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Has anybody at any time ever
·4· asked you to look at your emails or your text
·5· messages to determine whether you've communicated
·6· with respect to this matter?
·7· · · · A.· · I can't -- I can't remember.
·8· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Anything that might help you
·9· remember that?
10· · · · A.· · In the last two years?
11· · · · Q.· · Right.
12· · · · A.· · I can't -- I can't re- -- would
13· anything help me?
14· · · · Q.· · Right.
15· · · · A.· · No.
16· · · · Q.· · You don't think so?
17· · · · A.· · I'd be making -- I mean, I don't know.
18· I don't know what you're -- I don't know what
19· you're get- -- I don't understand the question, I
20· suppose.
21· · · · Q.· · Right.· Well, all I'm asking is we want
22· to make sure we have all the information related to
23· this case, any memos, any emails, any text messages
24· anybody has -- has authored with respect to this

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·1· investigation begins all the way through the
·2· process, all the way through the Police Board.
·3· · · · Q.· · Okay.· All right.· Now, has anybody
·4· ever tried to provide you an update with respect to
·5· this investigation and you've said, No, thank you,
·6· I don't want to be involved in it?· Anything like
·7· that happen?
·8· · · · A.· · Not to my knowledge.
·9· · · · Q.· · We have emails indicating that you were
10· asking for updates from the CPD investigators
11· regarding this investigation.
12· · · · · · · · ·Do you have any memory of that?
13· · · · A.· · No.
14· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· You have to answer yes or no,
15· sir.
16· · · · THE WITNESS:· I'm sorry.· I said no.· I'm
17· sorry.· I'm sorry.· I apologize.
18· BY MR. FOUTRIS:
19· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Have you personally sent any
20· text messages or emails regarding this particular
21· matter?
22· · · · A.· · I have no idea.
23· · · · Q.· · Nothing that you recall?
24· · · · A.· · In the last two years?

·1· matter.· One of the things we asked from the City
·2· is things that you may have or your office may have
·3· authored with respect to this matter.
·4· · · · · · · · ·So all I'm asking is has anything to
·5· your knowledge been done in that regard, and has
·6· anybody asked you to find that?
·7· · · · A.· · That wouldn't come to me.· That would
·8· come to somebody else in the office, meaning
·9· counsel or otherwise.· So I wouldn't know.
10· · · · Q.· · Fair enough.
11· · · · · · · · ·Okay.· Earlier you said, I think,
12· that you were the executive officer for the City of
13· Chicago?
14· · · · A.· · I'm the Mayor.
15· · · · Q.· · Okay.· And as the Mayor, you create
16· policy for the City of Chicago?
17· · · · A.· · That's one of the responsibilities, yes.
18· · · · Q.· · Okay.
19· · · · A.· · As do others.
20· · · · Q.· · Right.· Well -- and one of the things
21· that you create policy for is things like
22· determining whether COPA should be founded or
23· created, things along that nature, fair enough?
24· · · · A.· · On that one, that was a recommendation

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·1· that came out of the task force, and that was what
·2· we implemented, led the effort to make it part of
·3· City ordinance and City policy and now the piece of
·4· structure for the City.
·5· · · · Q.· · You're talking about the -- a task
·6· force that was -- that came down with the
·7· recommendations in March of '16?
·8· · · · A.· · The Mayoral task force made up of a
·9· body that had a series of recommendations.· And
10· I think I've said certain things in and around
11· training -12· · · · Q.· · Right.
13· · · · A.· · -- community policing, deescalation,
14· transparency, technology like the body cameras,
15· training associated with that, a whole host of
16· things that we're in the middle of implementing.
17· · · · Q.· · Have all those things been implemented
18· from that task force?
19· · · · A.· · Everything?
20· · · · Q.· · Right.
21· · · · A.· · No.· But it -- I mean, I probably could
22· get a long list.· But I'm trying to do by summary.
23· Like there's -- we have a new policy on releasing
24· videos which came from it.· We have a new policy

·1· maker with respect to implementing those various
·2· recommendations from that task force, fair?
·3· · · · A.· · I would actually say in a lot of these,
·4· the City Council's the final.· I -- I recommend it,
·5· and then if they don't pass them, then I've
·6· obviously, short of another more eloquent way of
·7· saying it, put some political weight behind getting
·8· them done.
·9· · · · Q.· · Okay.
10· · · · A.· · But the City Council with the Mayor is
11· the ultimate rather than myself.
12· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Now, just to be clear, COPA,
13· that is an agency of the City, right?
14· · · · A.· · Correct.
15· · · · Q.· · Okay.· And it's empowered -16· · · · A.· · I haven't looked at its legal
17· structure, but my assumption is yes, it's -18· · · · Q.· · Well -19· · · · A.· · -- it's a legal entity of the City.
20· · · · Q.· · That's what I'm asking.
21· · · · A.· · Yes.· Yes.
22· · · · Q.· · Just like the police department is,
23· right?
24· · · · A.· · Um-hmm.

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·1· on -- and every officer a year has a schedule and

·1· · · · Q.· · Is that a yes?

·2· has a body camera and trained on it.· Every

·2· · · · A.· · Yes.· I apologize.

·3· officer's received training on distinguishing

·3· · · · Q.· · And COPA is empowered by ordinance

·4· mental health from another type of call that 911

·4· we've talked about earlier?

·5· may be dispatching from, as did 911 officers.· We

·5· · · · A.· · There's an ordinance and --

·6· have a new policy on deescalation and the training

·6· · · · Q.· · Rules and regs.

·7· associated with it.· We have a new policy and

·7· · · · A.· · Rules and regs that come around like

·8· protocols associated with community policing.

·8· that.

·9· · · · · · · · ·Those are some of the things I can

·9· · · · Q.· · Okay.· And its authority derives from

10· remember from kind of the high end, but there are

10· ordinance that we've described in the rules and

11· other things that have happened all the way through

11· regulations you just referenced, right?

12· consistent with an overall approach to new

12· · · · A.· · That is the -- there's an ordinance,

13· structures, new protocols, new oversight and

13· and then there's rules and regs.· And then there's

14· accountability, and including what we're dealing

14· obviously, as questions arise, there's

15· with today, the three-step kind of sort of reform

15· interpretation that people have.

16· that differed with what happened -- the kind of

16· · · · Q.· · Well, the authority that COPA derives

17· two-step that existed before.

17· is not from the City Council, it's not from your

18· · · · Q.· · And those things you just described,

18· office.· It's from the ordinance and the rules and

19· the policies that came out of that task force,

19· regulations, true?· And however they're interpreted.

20· those are policies that you've implemented and that 20· · · · A.· · I don't want to go through the
21· you have -- well, that you've implemented, right?

21· legislative process, but there's an ordinance,

22· · · · A.· · Implement- -- implemented and

22· there are rules and regulations, and then when

23· implementing.

23· there's disagreements, there's interpretation.

24· · · · Q.· · Okay.· And you were the final decision

24· · · · Q.· · Right.· That's all I'm -- all I'm

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·1· driving at is ultimately the authority from COPA

·1· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· Yes.
·2· doesn't come from you saying they can do X, Y, or Z ·2· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Part of this process, the
·3· or the City Council saying they could do X, Y, or
·3· Superintendent of police can agree or disagree as
·4· Z; it's actually delineated in rules and regulations,
·4· to one of these three responses in COPA with code
·5· ordinance, and how those things are interpreted,
·5· of silence?
·6· fair?
·6· · · · THE WITNESS:· He is -- I suppose the best way
·7· · · · A.· · Yes.
·7· to think about it is as the ordinance shows and as
·8· · · · Q.· · And COPA, in a nutshell, it speaks for
·8· the rules and regulations show, he is given a
·9· the City with respect to the topics outlined within
·9· recommendation, he is given 60 days, he responds,
10· those rules and regulations and the ordinance?
10· and the process keeps moving to get to an ultimate
11· · · · A.· · That's fair.
11· judgment.
12· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· Objection.
12· BY MR. FOUTRIS:
13· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection.
13· · · · Q.· · Well, do you agree that the optics of
14· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· Object to the form of the
14· the Superintendent's letter in this case makes it
15· question because the Mayor previously testified
15· appear like the Superintendent is engaged in some
16· about that whole -- he -16· sort of code of silence?
17· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Well, you know, let's make it
17· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection; vague, form of the
18· a little simpler when you say it speaks for the
18· question.
19· City.
19· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· And what's the Superintendent's
20· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· Okay.
20· letter -21· · · · THE COURT:· Can you rephrase that?
21· · · · THE WITNESS:· I suppose I would just say I
22· · · · THE WITNESS:· Do you want to give it a shot?
22· think the Superintendent's acting in the role that
23· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· No.
23· is the Superintendent's jurisdiction as defined by
24
24· the ordinance of the City Council.
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·1· BY MR. FOUTRIS:

·1· BY MR. FOUTRIS:
·2· · · · Q.· · All right.· Well, we've talked ad
·2· · · · Q.· · Would you agree with me that the optics
·3· nauseam about COPA being independent.· If its
·3· of having a Superintendent weigh in at all on
·4· recommendations are subject to the police
·4· COPA's rulings makes it appear as if COPA is not
·5· department's judgment, in this case Superintendent ·5· truly independent?
·6· Johnson, how is that independent?
·6· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection to the form of the
·7· · · · A.· · Well, I think I -- speaking about ad
·7· question and vague.
·8· nauseam, there's another step in that process which
·8· · · · THE COURT:· You know, I think you need to
·9· is different.· And to draw a distinction, in the
·9· rephrase it besides optics.
10· past, the Superintendent's judgment would almost be
10· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· It -- well -11· the fin- -- would be the final word.· Today it's
11· · · · THE COURT:· I mean, it is laid out ad nauseam
12· not.· And this goes forward, whether he agreed or
12· that at least statute -- or the rules and
13· disagreed, to the Police Board, which is made up of
13· regulations of COPA findings that COPA comes out
14· civilians.
14· with a finding.· Then 60 days, the Superintendent
15· · · · · · · · ·So the final word has yet to been
15· responds.· Is it one of three or four ways?
16· reached in this situation or in other situations.
16· · · · MR. ROGERS:· One of three ways to the
17· · · · Q.· · Well, a police officer ultimately has
17· recommendation.
18· the power to weigh in on this independent agency's 18· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· One of three ways to the
19· determinations as it's happened in this case, right? 19· recommendations.· And so in this case, he responded
20· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection to the form of the
20· in an 11-page letter; am I correct in that?
21· question.
21· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Yes, your Honor.
22· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· When you say "weigh in," do
22· · · · THE COURT:· Okay.· So that's what's gone on -23· you mean the -- a police officer can agree or
23· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· Okay.
24· disagree?
24· · · · THE COURT:· -- so far.

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·1· BY MR. FOUTRIS:
·2· · · · Q.· · Let me ask something different.
·3· · · · · · · · ·Why did you not ask for an ordinance
·4· that cuts the CPD out of this process entirely and
·5· just has COPA going straight to the Police Board?
·6· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection; calls for speculation.
·7· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· Same objection.· Relevance.
·8· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Well, relevancy isn't one
·9· either.· What I'm trying to get here is it's -- we
10· went through this process, and the process was that
11· there was a task force and they put it together and
12· they try to keep everything independent.
13· · · · · · · · ·The Mayor has testified that, in his
14· view, to keep it independent, that involves the
15· Chinese wall so that there's not an exterior -- or
16· that there's not influence on it between other
17· people.· And so I guess -- and other departments.
18· So COPA came up -- somebody came up with this -19· the task force came up with this idea that was put
20· through and approved by City Council, correct?· Is
21· that where we're at so far with it?· We're all in
22· agreement with that.
23· · · · · · · · ·And so then the question is why
24· didn't -- I guess the question is did he ask if he

·1· BY MR. FOUTRIS:
·2· · · · Q.· · Okay.· I'll move on.
·3· · · · · · · · ·We talked about the process.· At the
·4· end of process, is it your intention to review
·5· COPA, what they said and what the Superintendent
·6· said?
·7· · · · A.· · When this comes all the way to the end?
·8· · · · Q.· · Right.
·9· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Well, wait.· I want to
10· interrupt here.· So we're straight, before you
11· answer.
12· · · · · · · · ·So the process is now it goes to the
13· Police Review Board; is that right?
14· · · · THE WITNESS:· Correct.
15· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· And is that the end of the
16· process that you're talking about?
17· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· That's the end of the process I
18· think we're all talking about.
19· · · · THE COURT:· So the question that you're
20· asking the Mayor here is at the end of the Police
21· Board's review of this -22· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· Yes.· Does he intend to review
23· what the Superintendent did and what COPA did in
24· this case.

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·1· could recall or -- ask it again.· I'm not sure on
·2· this one.
·3· BY MR. FOUTRIS:
·4· · · · Q.· · When you proposed this ordinance to the
·5· City Council, why did you include the provisions
·6· with respect to the Superintendent instead of just
·7· having COPA going straight to the Police Board?
·8· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection; foundation.
·9· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· It doesn't lead to anything
10· that's relevant or could lead to relevant
11· information in the case.
12· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· You got the right objection.
13· First time.
14· · · · · · · · ·If you can recall, you can answer
15· that.· I'm not sure those ...
16· · · · THE WITNESS:· I can't recall.· But my
17· understanding is this was exactly what was the
18· City Council and myself -- and I think, if I'm
19· stretching here, is I think, in fact, the task
20· force had recommended the three-step process
21· because the Superintendent -- they're making a
22· recommendation, but it goes all the way through.
23· But I can't remember who came up -- you're asking
24· me that, so I can't answer the question.

·1· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· Judge, it's not a correct
·2· presentation.· After the Police Board, they still
·3· have administrative review after proceedings and in
·4· the Circuit Court.· So it's not -·5· BY MR. FOUTRIS:
·6· · · · Q.· · All right.· Once the entire thing is
·7· done, including all appeals, all the way to the
·8· Illinois Supreme Court, assuming you're still
·9· Mayor, even if you're not, will at that -- it could
10· be ten years from now.· That's why.· Will at that
11· point -12· · · · A.· · You want me -- you tell me what you're
13· doing ten years from now, I'll tell you what I'm
14· doing.· I don't -- I don't -- look.· On a serious
15· side, I understand the intent.· I don't know what
16· I'm going to do at the end of ten years.· I think
17· that would -- at the end of this process. I
18· can't -- I really am not in the place to answer
19· that question.
20· · · · Q.· · The reason why I ask it is because
21· there's obvious- -22· · · · A.· · Well, what you should assume -- I mean,
23· stories appear in the paper.· I read them.· That's
24· presently currently.

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·1· · · · Q.· · Okay.· The reason why I ask it is

·1· separates what COPA does from internal reviews.
·2· because you can see by what's going on today,
·2· And I think we went through all the items here.
·3· there's obviously dispute as to whether the process
·3· · · · Q.· · I know.· But I don't think we've ever
·4· was being followed honestly.
·4· gotten a clear answer.
·5· · · · · · · · ·So if the process is not being
·5· · · · · · · · ·Do you agree that the Superintendent
·6· followed by either COPA, the Police Board,
·6· does not investigate police shootings?
·7· Superintendent, whomever, as the Mayor, do you have ·7· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· Yes or no.
·8· any authority to rectify that?
·8· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection; asked and answered
·9· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection; calls for
·9· multiple times.
10· speculation, assumes facts not in evidence.
10· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· And what -11· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· And also not -11· · · · THE WITNESS:· I do know that the COPA's
12· · · · THE WITNESS:· All I would -- do you want me
12· investigating -13· to answer it?
13· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· What document is that that
14· · · · THE COURT:· Good luck.
14· you're referring to?
15· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· It's not going to lead to
15· · · · THE WITNESS:· What was -- No. 6, which was
16· anything relevant.
16· the website.
17· · · · THE WITNESS:· I have no idea.· I don't know
17· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· So this is Exhibit No. 6.· And
18· if -- there's no -- your -- the con- -- assumption,
18· so it's -19· which I don't know is accurate, is you're saying
19· · · · THE WITNESS:· And I've acknowledged that.
20· that the process is not being followed correctly,
20· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· And that COPA investigates
21· and I don't know that to be true.· And nobody
21· certain things, and CPD Bureau of Internal Affairs
22· concluded that.
22· investigates other things.
23· BY MR. FOUTRIS:
23· BY MR. FOUTRIS:
24· · · · Q.· · Whether it is or isn't, but I'm just
24· · · · Q.· · Yes.· That's the printout from the COPA
Page 175

·1· saying hypothetically if it turns out that it is
·2· somehow by some party not being followed
·3· appropriately and it comes to your attention
·4· through the legal department, for instance -- this
·5· is a hypothetical.
·6· · · · A.· · I know.· I don't -- I'm not good -- I
·7· can't answer a hypothetical.
·8· · · · Q.· · You don't know?
·9· · · · A.· · No.· I said I can't answer a
10· hypothetical.
11· · · · Q.· · Why not?
12· · · · A.· · Because it wouldn't be appropriate.
13· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· Objection.· It's not going to
14· lead to anything.
15· BY MR. FOUTRIS:
16· · · · Q.· · Okay.· The Superintendent does not
17· investigate police shootings, true?
18· · · · A.· · I think we've established the fact
19· that COPA -- I mean, going back to the original
20· document.
21· · · · Q.· · Do you agree with me that the Super22· intendent does not investigate police shootings?
23· · · · A.· · I think -- I don't want to do this.
24· But I think if we go to the original document 6, it

Page 177

·1· website.
·2· · · · · · · · ·That's what you're referring to?
·3· · · · A.· · That was directed to the judge.
·4· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· That's Exhibit 6.
·5· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· Right.
·6· · · · THE WITNESS:· Exhibit 6.· And I acknowledge
·7· that those are all accurate and that's consistent.
·8· BY MR. FOUTRIS:
·9· · · · Q.· · Okay.· So you agree with me that COPA
10· investigates police shootings and not the CPD, true?
11· · · · A.· · Yes.· It's in here that death or
12· serious bodily injury, point No. 3, in custody.
13· · · · Q.· · Okay.
14· · · · A.· · Okay?· I know it's here.· I know what's
15· over here for internal review.· And I know that in
16· this situation, COPA and IPRA originally are the
17· investigatory -- the beginning of the process that
18· then goes to the Superintendent, then it goes to
19· the Police Board, then it goes on to the case.
20· · · · Q.· · I've still got more.· I'm going to move
21· on to the code of silence, Mr. Mayor.
22· · · · A.· · Okay.
23· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Your Honor, could we just get a
24· time check of -- we've been going for almost three

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·1· hours.· So I just want to make sure.
·2· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· 15 minutes.
·3· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Less.· I don't see how it can
·4· go 15 minutes.
·5· · · · MR. ROGERS:· I have other -- I have -·6· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· So let's go.
·7· BY MR. FOUTRIS:
·8· · · · Q.· · Code of silence, you talked about it at
·9· your -- at your speech.· So I want to talk to you
10· about your speech.· Okay?
11· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Talk to him about the code of
12· silence and his speech.
13· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· Right.· It's together.
14· · · · THE COURT:· Get it done.
15· BY MR. FOUTRIS:
16· · · · Q.· · During your speech, you indicated that
17· you -- that there were instances of police
18· misconduct that exist within the CPD.
19· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Well, we've -- he -- didn't
20· Mr. Rogers go through that speech?
21· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· Not these parts.· These are -22· these are different parts I wanted to go through.
23· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Show him the speech.· It's not
24· going to be a memory test.· Show him page and

·1· implemented a series of them.
·2· · · · Q.· · Well, it was in the context of the
·3· release of the Laquan McDonald video, right?
·4· · · · A.· · Correct.
·5· · · · Q.· · And it was at a point in time that the
·6· City government was in crisis given that release of
·7· that video and the way that it was being perceived
·8· by the public, fair?
·9· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection; form of the question.
10· · · · THE WITNESS:· It was in the process of also -11· process of making changes to build confidence in
12· the oversight, the structures, and the transparency
13· related to the police.
14· BY MR. FOUTRIS:
15· · · · Q.· · There were accusations of a police
16· coverup regarding the Laquan McDonald video at
17· that time, right?
18· · · · A.· · Yes.
19· · · · Q.· · And that's consistent with your
20· understanding of what a code of silence is, right?
21· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection to the form of the
22· question.
23· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· If he -- if that's your
24· understanding of the code of silence where the

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·1· paragraph.· We're going to get through this.
·2· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· Let's start with the first -·3· I'm not sure if it's the same.· I have a different
·4· version.
·5· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Well, wait a second.· Are
·6· there different versions of his speech?
·7· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· No.· It's different printouts.
·8· So it's the same speech, different printouts.
·9· · · · THE WITNESS:· I'm looking at document 2.· Is
10· that okay?
11· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· Yes, document 2.· All right.
12· Let's start with this.· During the -13· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Go to a page and paragraph
14· number, what it starts with.
15· BY MR. FOUTRIS:
16· · · · Q.· · All right.· Well, you -- the speech was
17· an attempt to be truthful and transparent with the
18· public.· Do you agree with that?
19· · · · A.· · No.· The truth -- yes.· And -- but it
20· doesn't fully capture it.· It was also to start a
21· process like the task -- it was the task force
22· became a week earlier.· The speech was to put an
23· inflection point for the City to begin a series of
24· reforms, which we're in the middle of, and had

·1· police cover another policeman.· Nefarious
·2· activities?· Illegal activities?· What activities?
·3· Let's be a little bit more specific.
·4· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· I think we went through this
·5· earlier.
·6· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Then why are we going through
·7· it again?
·8· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· No.· Just -- it was the
·9· tendency to ignore, the tendency to deny, and
10· tendency in some cases to cover up bad actions of
11· a colleague or colleagues.
12· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· If that's what we're going
13· through again -14· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· Right.
15· · · · THE COURT:· -- let's direct the Mayor to that
16· page and paragraph, and we'll get to it.
17· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Do you have the page?
18· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· Why are you doing that,
19· Counsel?· Because I know where it is in mine.
20· · · · MR. ROGERS:· Here it is.· Page 5.
21· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Which paragraph?
22· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· Let me see.· The code of
23· silence, the way he described it.· No, that's not
24· it.· Sorry.

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·1· · · · MR. ROGERS:· 6.· I'm sorry.
·2· BY MR. FOUTRIS:
·3· · · · Q.· · Page 6.· We talked about earlier where
·4· you described the thin blue line other times
·5· referred as the code of silence.
·6· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Page 6, which paragraph are we
·7· looking?
·8· · · · THE WITNESS:· I see it.
·9· · · · THE COURT:· Okay.
10· BY MR. FOUTRIS:
11· · · · Q.· · You see it?
12· · · · A.· · Okay.
13· · · · Q.· · Okay.· All right.· So you defined it in
14· your speech as coverups.· That's part of a code of
15· silence, right?
16· · · · A.· · What my attempt here is to be, like any
17· profession, and I think I say it in this speech,
18· there's a lot of good police officers, there's a
19· few bad apples.· There's a lot of -- in every
20· profession.· And there's a -- what I would refer to
21· sometimes a knee jerk reaction to circle the
22· wagons.· Like -- and we're seeing it now in the
23· public domain and a whole set of other issues in
24· other professions and that Chicago's not -- stand

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·1· · · · THE WITNESS:· I stand by what's said, correct.

·2· BY MR. FOUTRIS:
·3· · · · Q.· · And that's where you acknowledge that
·4· the Chicago Police Department had a code of silence
·5· at that time, right?
·6· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection; asked and answered.
·7· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Let's read the paragraph.
·8· What does the paragraph say again?
·9· · · · THE WITNESS:· Is this paragraph 2?
10· · · · THE COURT:· Let's see.
11· BY MR. FOUTRIS:
12· · · · Q.· · It's, "This problem is sometimes
13· referred to as the thin blue line."
14· · · · · · · · ·You're talking about you were
15· looking for a new leader to address the problems at
16· the very heart of the police profession.· And then
17· you described the problem as the thin blue line
18· other times referred to as the code of silence.
19· Right?
20· · · · A.· · That's what it says here.
21· · · · Q.· · Okay.· So this is where you were
22· acknowledging that the Chicago Police Department
23· had a code of silence at that time?
24· · · · A.· · I think if you go to the earlier page,

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·1· out or different.· But that there is an attempt
·2· sometimes in a profession to protect a colleague
·3· versus the highest standards of the police
·4· department or any other profession for that matter.
·5· · · · Q.· · In that speech, you acknowledge the
·6· code of silence exists in the CPD -·7· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· Objection; asked and answered.
·8· BY MR. FOUTRIS:
·9· · · · Q.· · -- right?
10· · · · A.· · I think I -11· · · · THE COURT:· Are you directing him to a page
12· and paragraph number?
13· BY MR. FOUTRIS:
14· · · · Q.· · What we just read is your acknowledgment
15· that a code of silence exists in the CPD?
16· · · · A.· · There's a -17· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection; asked and answered.
18· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· You can answer that.· You
19· already said that that paragraph number is in
20· there.
21· · · · THE WITNESS:· We read the paragraph.
22· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· That's where you -23· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· And you stand by what's said
24· in there, correct?

·1· I've also acknowledged there are other police
·2· departments.· My general thrust is behind a lot
·3· of professions.
·4· · · · · · · · ·We can -- as I said, we see it
·5· playing out today in other professions in other
·6· type of issues.· And make sure that the highest
·7· professional standards is upheld by the lion's
·8· share of the police department and the rank and
·9· file.· But there are a few bad apples.· And then
10· there's a knee jerk reaction to protect a colleague
11· rather than accept the standards that we're all
12· trained to uphold and the rules and responsibilities
13· to uphold.
14· · · · Q.· · In December of 2015, was there a code
15· of silence in the Chicago Police Department?
16· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection; asked and answered.
17· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· When was this speech made?
18· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· December of 2015.
19· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Okay.· And you stand by what's
20· said in that speech -21· · · · THE WITNESS:· Correct.
22· · · · THE COURT:· -- the entire context; is that
23· correct?
24· · · · THE WITNESS:· Correct.

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·1· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· In that paragraph.
·2· · · · THE WITNESS:· The context and the purpose.
·3· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· And he's defined the blue line
·4· and what else is wrong with those -·5· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· I don't think that there's ever
·6· been a direct answer to that question, Judge, and I
·7· would just like a question -- that question
·8· answered is that in December of 2015 whether there
·9· was a code of silence that existed in the CPD?
10· · · · MR. SISKEL:· I think the witness has answered
11· the question multiple times.
12· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· And in that paragraph, he
13· stands by that paragraph as set forth in there,
14· what it's called at different times, and he's given
15· his definition -16· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· Right.· The reason why -17· · · · THE COURT:· -- and that is that sometimes
18· when something occurs, there's a knee jerk reaction
19· to circle the wagons.· It depends what the result
20· is.
21· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· The reason why I ask, Judge, is
22· because there was a stipulation filed with this
23· court a week ago that was verified by the Mayor
24· under oath where he --

·1· · · · Q.· · Do you stand by that statement?
·2· · · · A.· · That's why we put in place and under
·3· Superintendent Johnson the deescalation policy.
·4· · · · Q.· · Do you stand by that?
·5· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· He already answered that.· He
·6· said yes and "that's why we put that in place."
·7· · · · · · · · ·Am I correct in that, Mr. Mayor?
·8· · · · THE WITNESS:· Yeah, I -·9· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Should we read back the -10· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· I'd just like -- I didn't hear
11· the "yes" part, Judge.
12· · · · THE WITNESS:· I -- here.· I heard you read
13· the paragraph.· I stand by the paragraph.· And
14· that's why I said, as it says, this is where we -15· right training is essential.· Superintendent
16· Johnson put in the deescalation policy that is now
17· being -- officers are being trained by.
18· BY MR. FOUTRIS:
19· · · · Q.· · All right.· I'm going to ask you a
20· couple more questions before I get into just
21· conversations you've had with Antonio.· Okay?
22· And those will be brief as well.
23· · · · THE COURT:· Real quick.
24

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·1· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Well, show me.
·2· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· I don't have it.· But he backed
·3· away from whether there was a code of silence.· And
·4· that's what I want -·5· · · · MR. SISKEL:· And, your Honor, in the
·6· stipulation, he reiterates verbatim the language in
·7· the speech that we've just gone through.· So if his
·8· answer right now is consistent with the stipulation
·9· offered to avoid this deposition and now we're
10· going over it yet a fifth time.
11· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Well, he stands by that speech
12· in its entirety, including that paragraph taken in
13· context with the entire speech.
14· · · · THE WITNESS:· Thank you, your Honor.
15· BY MR. FOUTRIS:
16· · · · Q.· · All right.· Page 7 of that speech,
17· fifth paragraph.
18· · · · A.· · Um-hmm.
19· · · · Q.· · You said -- on page 7, the fifth
20· paragraph, you say, "Just because extreme force
21· is justified does not always mean it is required.
22· That is where the right training is essential."
23· · · · · · · · ·Did I read that correctly?
24· · · · A.· · You read it correctly.

·1· BY MR. FOUTRIS:
·2· · · · Q.· · Do you have any objection to the
·3· release of your deposition to the public?
·4· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection.
·5· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· I'm directing you not to
·6· answer that question.
·7· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· It has to do with transparency,
·8· Judge.· That's why I asked.
·9· · · · THE COURT:· It has nothing do with
10· transparency.· It has to do with my decision.
11· My decision.
12· · · · · · · · ·This is about some people in some
13· very unfortunate circumstances, and everything
14· that's going to result in this is going to be in
15· a trial that's in a courtroom.· And that's it.
16· · · · · · · · ·And let everybody that's in here
17· remember my order, and it's a protective order, and
18· everything stays here.
19· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· Judge, if I -- and just so
20· you -- it's a gag order and we're not to talk about
21· this as well as not release it, correct?
22· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· I think at this juncture, in
23· order to protect the parties in this case, and I'm
24· talking about the individuals, the families, these

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·1· people that were harmed, in order to protect the
·2· process so that it is not influenced by these
·3· comments, that nobody at this juncture is to say
·4· anything regarding these depositions at this
·5· juncture.
·6· · · · · · · · ·And if anything else leaks out -- I
·7· don't know where the other leak came from -- then
·8· there will be consequences.
·9· BY MR. FOUTRIS:
10· · · · Q.· · I saw earlier you had some note cards
11· in front of you.· One of them said Dad.· What was
12· that note card?
13· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Hold on a second.
14· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· I'm going to ask him about the
15· "dad," so I wanted know what the note card said.
16· · · · MR. SISKEL:· I'm going to object.
17· · · · MR. KENNEDY:· He made notes during the
18· deposition.· It's discoverable.
19· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· One second.· Why don't we do
20· an in camera inspection on it?
21· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· Okay.
22· · · · THE COURT:· Okay.
23· · · · THE WITNESS:· It's from my two kids -24· · · · THE COURT:· Un-uhn.· Un-uhn.· Okay.· Put it

Page 192

·1· · · · A.· · No.
·2· · · · Q.· · If I were to tell you it happened at
·3· the Palmer House Hilton, does that help you
·4· remember?· That it happened at the Palmer House
·5· Hilton, does that jog your memory at all?
·6· · · · A.· · I don't remember, but I -- I don't
·7· remember.
·8· · · · Q.· · Okay.· All right.· So during that
·9· meeting, you had an opportunity to sit down and
10· observe Antonio LeGrier and speak to him; is that
11· right?
12· · · · A.· · Yes.
13· · · · Q.· · Okay.· And you would agree with him -14· you would agree with me that it was apparent to you
15· that he was grieving over the loss of his son?
16· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· Objection.
17· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· You can answer.
18· · · · THE WITNESS:· I don't remember.· But as a
19· father of three children, yes.· But I don't -- I
20· don't remember -- I couldn't even tell you the
21· place we met.· But I do -- I know that he has a
22· loss of a son.
23· BY MR. FOUTRIS:
24· · · · Q.· · Well, based on -- in your mind's eye,

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·1· back in your pocket.

·1· your recollection of that meeting, would you agree
·2· · · · · · · · ·I'm directing him not to answer the
·2· with me that your perception was that Mr. LeGrier
·3· question.
·3· had outward manifestations of grief that you
·4· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· Okay.
·4· observed?
·5· · · · THE COURT:· It is completely unrelated to any
·5· · · · A.· · I can't -- I can't remember.· But I can
·6· topic that is involved in this matter.
·6· only assume given the timing if that's the timing
·7· BY MR. FOUTRIS:
·7· in which we met.
·8· · · · Q.· · Okay.· All right.· So you did have
·8· · · · Q.· · I'm not asking you to assume.· I'm
·9· conversations with Mr. LeGrier and -- Antonio
·9· asking for what you remember.· That's why -10· LeGrier and Janet Cooksey in the last two years,
10· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· He said he can't remember.
11· right?
11· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· Okay.
12· · · · A.· · Yes.
12· · · · THE COURT:· So that's his answer.
13· · · · Q.· · Okay.· You know Antonio LeGrier is the
13· · · · THE WITNESS:· Okay.
14· father of Quintonio LeGrier?
14· BY MR. FOUTRIS:
15· · · · A.· · Yes.
15· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Do you have any recollection as
16· · · · Q.· · You know Janet Cooksey is the mother of
16· to whether it appeared to you that Antonio was
17· Quintonio LeGrier?
17· suffering a heavy loss during this meeting?
18· · · · A.· · Yes.
18· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection.
19· · · · Q.· · Okay.· And you also had a meeting with
19· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Is that regarding -- let's be
20· Antonio LeGrier, I think it was perhaps December 28th 20· specific.· Regarding the -21· or 29th of 2015.· Does that sound about right?
21· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· The loss of his son.
22· · · · A.· · I don't remember the dates, but I did
22· · · · THE COURT:· -- loss of his son?
23· have a meeting.
23· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· The death of his son.
24· · · · Q.· · Do you remember where it was?
24· · · · THE WITNESS:· I can't -- I can't -- I can't

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·1· recall.

·1· · · · · · · · ·There's been other situations.· So I
·2· BY MR. FOUTRIS:
·2· don't remember this specifically.· But it would not
·3· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Subsequent to that, do you
·3· be out of -- inconsistent with other things I've
·4· remember having phone conversations with him in
·4· done.
·5· which he asked you to help him create a jobs
·5· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Do you recall any specifics of
·6· program on the West Side in his son's name in order ·6· conversations you've had with Janet Cooksey and
·7· to deal with his grief?
·7· whether your perception was that she was grieving
·8· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· Objection.· Not relevant or
·8· for the loss of her son?
·9· going to lead to any possible relevant information
·9· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Do one part at a time.
10· in this case.
10· · · · · · · · ·Do you recall any of your
11· · · · · · · · ·It's about -- Judge, it's a wrongful
11· conversations with any specific -- whatever the
12· death case about a shooting -12· word is -- with Janet Cooksey?
13· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· The City -13· · · · THE WITNESS:· Only -- I mean, I -- in
14· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· -- and use of force.· It's
14· general.
15· not -15· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Please.
16· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· The City of Chicago is
16· · · · THE WITNESS:· Okay.· In general I recall.
17· maintaining that there are no damages.· They're
17· BY MR. FOUTRIS:
18· contesting the damages to the parents.· They're
18· · · · Q.· · Tell me what you recall about those
19· contesting that there are any damages.· The Mayor,
19· conversations.
20· I know, actually helped -20· · · · A.· · The only thing I -- one, she was upset
21· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· Well, he's already -21· that I called the father first.
22· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· Right.
22· · · · · · · · ·Second, she was upset by what
23· · · · THE COURT:· -- expressed that he -- when he
23· happened.
24· talks to people that are grieving and stuff like
24· · · · · · · · ·Third, she was upset about the way
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·1· that, he addresses that -·2· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· That's the meeting.· But now
·3· I'm talking about conversations in which the Mayor
·4· actually helped him create this jobs program.
·5· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· I stand by my objection.
·6· · · · THE COURT:· Well, if -- did he create -- did
·7· he create a program at their request?
·8· BY MR. FOUTRIS:
·9· · · · Q.· · Did you help or at least direct Antonio
10· LeGrier in how to create this jobs program to help
11· to deal with the grief of the loss of his son?· Do
12· you recall that?
13· · · · A.· · Let me -- not specifically.
14· · · · · · · · ·Let me say this.· My attempt, when I
15· meet with families, is to more to let them know in
16· a moment of loneliness that they're not alone.· If
17· a family member asks me to do something, I try to
18· do it.· There's been family members -- a mother
19· who's lost a son who I helped get a van for so she
20· could drive the other kids to basketball that his
21· son -- her son was part of the basketball team.
22· · · · · · · · ·There's been a mother who's asked me
23· to move out of the neighborhood.· We tried to help
24· them find housing.

·1· the media covered her son.
·2· · · · · · · · ·And fourth, she asked for some help.
·3· · · · Q.· · Okay.· And you helped her out?
·4· · · · A.· · Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Do you have a specific memory of
·6· the conversations you've had with Antonio LeGrier
·7· similar to the one that you had with Janet Cooksey
·8· that you've just now described?
·9· · · · A.· · Not -- not as specific as I did with
10· the mother.
11· · · · Q.· · Okay.· The most recent conversation you
12· had with Antonio LeGrier Mr. Brodsky covered a
13· little bit; that was the one that happened a few
14· months back in connection with the counterclaim
15· filed by the City?
16· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· Objection.· It's a contribution
17· action, not a counterclaim.
18· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· Contribution action.
19· · · · THE WITNESS:· I think I've exp- -- done the
20· best I could to -21· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· Right.
22· · · · THE WITNESS:· -- recreate the purpose behind
23· the call.
24

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·1· BY MR. FOUTRIS:
·2· · · · Q.· · Right.· Could you tell us to the best
·3· of your recollection that conversation?· I don't
·4· think -- I don't think that was asked by
·5· Mr. Brodsky.· But could you tell us to the best
·6· of your recollection that conversation with
·7· Mr. LeGrier?
·8· · · · A.· · I think it was time that the counsel
·9· action.· I just wanted him to know, again, less as
10· a Mayor, more as a person, that I am sensitive
11· to -- and, again, I'm not a lawyer.· I don't do
12· litigation.· But I'm sensitive to his loss and all
13· that he has been through.
14· · · · Q.· · And when you say "all that he has been
15· through," what do you mean by that?
16· · · · A.· · As a father of three children, if
17· anything happened to my kids that I would be -- I
18· could only empathize with what I would think would
19· be the loss of a child.
20· · · · Q.· · And it was -- it was your -- was it
21· your belief that this claim for contribution by the
22· City was callous?
23· · · · A.· · I think I've expressed myself today.
24· · · · Q.· · Okay.· And did you think that that

·1· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· Objection; relevance or lead to
·2· relevant information.
·3· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· It's along the same lines as
·4· the claim for contribution.
·5· · · · THE COURT:· So it's going to be -- so you're
·6· seeking by this line of questioning that -- to
·7· establish that your client suffered pain, grief,
·8· and suffering, right?
·9· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· That's -- that's what I'm
10· getting at.
11· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· Objection.
12· · · · THE COURT:· I think -13· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· You're asking the Mayor -14· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· I think -- I think -- at some
15· point you're going to let me speak.
16· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· I'm sorry, your Honor.
17· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· I think the Mayor's already
18· expressed that, and he's expressed it personally as
19· being the father of three children and what he can
20· only imagine is the grief that the parents would
21· suffer as a loss of one of their children.
22· · · · · · · · ·Is that a correct assumption, or a
23· correct -24· · · · THE WITNESS:· Yes, your Honor.

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·1· particular legal maneuver in your opinion added to
·2· the grief and suffering?
·3· · · · A.· · I think we've established I have no
·4· legal opinion since I'm not a lawyer.· But as I
·5· think I've made clear in other sit- -- other
·6· numerous questions what was the basis of the phone
·7· call, what was the basis to express.· One is you've
·8· had a loss.· And -·9· · · · Q.· · And you believed that that legal
10· maneuver in your opinion added to that?
11· · · · A.· · I just -12· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection; asked and answered.
13· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· It has been.
14· BY MR. FOUTRIS:
15· · · · Q.· · In the media reports that you've read
16· in this case, have you heard about the questions
17· that were asked to Ms. Cooksey during her
18· deposition in which it was implied that she was
19· engaged in prostitution during the conception of
20· Quintonio LeGrier?
21· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· Objection; relevance -22· · · · THE COURT:· So you're asking did he read that
23· in the newspaper?
24· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· Yes.

·1· · · · THE COURT:· And the analysis of what you've
·2· testified ad nauseam today about this, true?
·3· · · · THE WITNESS:· Yes, your Honor.
·4· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· I would also -- going to ask
·5· if he also believes that the questions posed to
·6· Antonio LeGrier and to Janet Cooksey were callous
·7· just as he believed that the legal maneuver was
·8· callous.
·9· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Objection.
10· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· Object.
11· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Asked and answered.
12· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· What he believes is irrelevant.
13· · · · MR. KENNEDY:· The Court said that specific
14· question could be asked in a case management.
15· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· I think we've gone through
16· enough.· So what else have we got?
17· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· Just going real quick.· I know
18· a lot of this -19· · · · THE COURT:· That would be your secret that
20· you're going real quick.
21· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Could we get a count on the
22· amount of time that the dep- -23· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· You know what?· We're way
24· over.· So what have you got?

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·1· · · · MR. BRODSKY:· Yeah.· That's it.
·2· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· No.· I don't have anything
·3· else.
·4· · · · MR. KENNEDY:· No questions, your Honor.
·5· · · · JUDGE O'HARA:· The only other question is do
·6· you do a signature or -·7· · · · MR. FOUTRIS:· Reserve or waive?· I take it'll
·8· be reserved, right?
·9· · · · THE VIDEO TECHNICIAN:· This is the end of the
10· deposition.· That's the end of today's testimony.
11· · · · MR. SISKEL:· Reserved.
12· · · · THE VIDEO TECHNICIAN:· The time is 5:45 p.m.
13· And the running time of this deposition is three
14· hours, nine minutes, and fifteen seconds.· We're
15· off the record.
16· · · · · · · · · · · (The deposition concluded at
17· · · · · · · · · · · ·5:45 p.m.)
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· · · · · · · ·REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
· · · I, Nick D. Bowen, do hereby certify that RAHM
EMANUEL was duly sworn by me to testify the whole
truth, that the foregoing deposition was recorded
stenographically by me and was reduced to
computerized transcript under my direction, and
that said deposition constitutes a true record of
the testimony given by said witness.
· · · I further certify that the reading and
signing of the deposition was not waived, and that
the deposition was submitted to Ms. Naomi Avendano,
defendant's counsel, for signature.· Pursuant to
Rule 207(a) of the Supreme Court of Illinois, if
deponent does not appear or read and sign the
deposition within 28 days, the deposition may be
used as fully as though signed, and this
certificate will then evidence such failure to
appear as the reason for signature not being
obtained.
· · · I further certify that I am not a relative
or employee or attorney or counsel of any of the
parties, or a relative or employee of such attorney
or counsel, or financially interested directly or
indirectly in this action.
· · · IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my
hand and affixed my seal of office at Chicago,
Illinois, this 5th day of April 2018.

· · · · · · · ·______________________________
· · · · · · · ·Illinois CSR No. 084-001661

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Page 205
·1· ·Errata Sheet

· ·IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF COOK COUNTY, ILLINOIS
· · · · · COUNTY DEPARTMENT - LAW DIVISION
·ANTONIO LEGRIER, Individually· )
·and as Special Administrator· ·)
·of the Estate of QUINTONIO· · ·)
·LEGRIER, Deceased,· · · · · · ·)
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )· No. 15 L 12964
· · · · · · · ·Plaintiff,· · · ·)
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )· Consolidated with
· · ·vs.· · · · · · · · · · · · )
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )· No. 16 L 00012
·CITY OF CHICAGO,· · · · · · · ·)
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
· · · · · · · ·Defendant.· · · ·)
· · · This is to certify that I have read my
deposition taken on Thursday, March 29, 2018,
in the foregoing cause and that the foregoing
transcript accurately states the questions asked
and the answers given by me, with the changes or
corrections, if any, made on the Errata Sheet
attached hereto.

·2
·3· ·NAME OF CASE: LATARSHA JONES, et al. vs CITY OF CHICAGO
·4· ·DATE OF DEPOSITION: 03/29/2018
·5· ·NAME OF WITNESS: Rahm Emanuel
·6· ·Reason Codes:
·7· · · · 1. To clarify the record.
·8· · · · 2. To conform to the facts.
·9· · · · 3. To correct transcription errors.
10· ·Page _____ Line ______ Reason ______
11· ·From ____________________ to ____________________
12· ·Page _____ Line ______ Reason ______
13· ·From ____________________ to ____________________
14· ·Page _____ Line ______ Reason ______
15· ·From ____________________ to ____________________
16· ·Page _____ Line ______ Reason ______

· · · · · · · · · ·_____________________________
· · · · · · · · · · · · RAHM EMANUEL

17· ·From ____________________ to ____________________

No errata sheets submitted (Please initial)
Number of errata sheets submitted _______ pages

19· ·From ____________________ to ____________________

Subscribed and sworn to
before me this _______ day
of _________________ 2018.

21· ·From ____________________ to ____________________

18· ·Page _____ Line ______ Reason ______

20· ·Page _____ Line ______ Reason ______

22· ·Page _____ Line ______ Reason ______
23· ·From ____________________ to ____________________

_______________________
· · ·Notary Public

24
25· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·_______________________

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RAHM EMANUEL, 03/29/2018
Exhibits
Exhibit 1 15:24 16:2 18:17 19:2
20:2,3

12 148:19 154:4 155:22

29 5:17

12/29/15 34:14

29th 34:5 191:21

12964 5:14

2:31 5:18

134 5:5

Exhibit 2 30:12 33:3,17 54:14
110:8

Exhibit 3 34:4 37:18,19,20
Exhibit 4 41:18,22 48:7
Exhibit 5 49:17 56:10 59:20
Exhibit 6 51:6,10 52:2 123:5

3

1400 5:5
15 13:10 178:2,4

75:22 77:3 86:19 90:12 101:10
177:12

15th 97:15
16 76:10 78:3 162:7
18 39:20

3-stage 72:8
30-day 35:3

19 39:20

176:17 177:4,6

3 33:23 34:4 37:18,19,20 60:6

311 44:22

Exhibit 7 75:15 79:6 80:11
2

Exhibit 8 79:14,20 80:12
Exhibit 9 83:21

2 30:12 33:3,17 37:17,18 38:11

Exhibit 10 100:10
Exhibit 11 122:6,7
Exhibit 12 155:22

54:14,16 72:7 75:20 77:10,11 98:4
101:10 106:2 110:8 179:9,11 184:9

4 41:18,22 48:7 60:5 71:2 72:18
75:15 76:2 77:3 101:10

2-78-110 56:17

4- 76:18

2-78-130 61:10 64:13 80:24 81:14

46 76:19

82:16

(

4

48 97:18,20 98:8,9

20 39:14 58:12 98:9

49 97:16,20,22 98:4

(1) 62:15

2007 55:8

4:08 105:14

(a) 60:2 61:17

2014 31:10,19 76:10 78:3

4:13 105:16

(a)(i) 61:18,20 81:3

2015 5:14 8:17 9:12 12:2 13:10

4:30 120:16

30:13,23 34:5 38:13 41:23 43:8
47:15 49:10 54:18 110:9 111:1
139:4 156:16 185:14,18 186:8
191:21

(b) 60:2
(c) 60:2
(d) 61:5

4:32 120:19
5

2016 5:15 76:11 78:4

(l) 59:20,23 60:9

2017 66:2,17 72:19 78:8 79:20
0

2018 5:17 13:14 97:15 101:2
120:23 122:20

000012 5:15

206 5:9

5 49:17 54:24 56:7,8,10 59:20 76:4,
15,22 80:22 181:20

50 119:6
5:45 202:12,17

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1
1 15:24 16:2 18:17 19:2 20:1,3 34:6
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150:16

10 100:10
11 87:13 88:22 91:14 94:7 95:18,19
101:8,19 103:9 114:15 115:21
120:6,10 122:7

11-page 13:19 93:17 100:11
114:5,13 169:20

6

213(f)(3) 141:20
22nd 12:11 13:14 65:17 66:2,5,17
72:19 78:8 79:20 100:9 101:2
113:13 119:24 120:23 122:20
123:18 124:20

2316 148:23

6 30:8 51:6,10 52:2 76:6 77:10,11,
13 78:3 110:14,19 123:5 175:24
176:15,17 177:4,6 182:1,3,6

60 62:2 78:10 82:22 83:7 168:9
169:14

2323 148:23

60-day 64:5 78:9

26 8:16 9:12 12:2 13:9 43:8 47:15

60602 5:6

49:10 139:4

28th 41:23 191:20

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6th 38:12 76:10

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Page 207

RAHM EMANUEL, 03/29/2018
7
7 66:15 72:18 75:15 76:8 77:17
79:6 80:11 101:13 187:16,19

acknowledged 176:19 185:1

afield 88:8

acknowledges 99:9

afresh 41:4

acknowledging 39:24 184:22

afternoon 7:6

acknowledgment 183:14

agencies 21:1 31:12,23 32:21

70s 17:12

acronyms 44:12

agency 31:24 99:6 104:9 111:24

7:25 34:5,14

acting 36:17 59:10,12 115:23
8

116:1 154:12 155:13 156:6,11
168:22

action 60:14,21 61:23 62:18 63:5,
8 79:14,20 80:12
9
9 83:21 97:10,11,13
911 39:8 43:12,15,17,19 44:1,10,22
45:9,14,21 46:14 47:22 163:4,5

9th 30:13,23 38:13 54:15,17 110:9
111:1

6,11,12,15 64:19,20,24 82:20 83:4
84:23,24 86:19,20,22 90:13 132:3,
6,19 133:17,20 134:8,15,24 135:6,
14 136:21 137:16 197:17,18 198:9

actions 23:5 43:11 61:7 64:1 88:9
111:17 146:12 181:10

activities 181:2
acts 90:16
actual 153:11

A

ad 69:1 94:21 167:2,7 169:11 201:2
Adam 34:14

a.m. 34:5,14

Adam's 39:17 40:7

abide 12:21 14:7

add 47:24

abided 12:18

added 199:1,10

ability 123:21

additional 60:22 62:18,23,24

abuse 99:5
accept 40:17 185:11
accessing 14:11

64:17 82:23 84:17

address 5:5 17:7 27:15 57:5 91:7,
10 101:13,15,18 111:7 113:15
129:23 184:15

accident 127:2

addressed 61:4

accidental 127:6

addresses 195:1

accomplish 23:7

addressing 65:18 101:19

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adjusting 17:24

Account- 56:12

administration 157:8

accountability 17:17,21 18:8

administrative 143:20 173:3

23:13 44:18,20 45:1 50:20 56:22
163:14

accounts 92:12
accurate 18:23 27:9 100:16 158:6
174:19 177:7

accusations 180:15
achieve 23:14 25:6 41:6,7
acknowledge 15:1 31:9 47:14
177:6 183:5 184:3

administrator 57:15,21 58:1,5
59:12,22 60:11 61:3,21 62:10,23
63:13 83:3 84:17

adopted 29:22 81:21
adopting 27:17
Affairs 23:7,21 24:2 28:4,9 52:5,11
53:3,11 54:3,20 55:3 97:17 98:7,
11,19 104:8 106:8 176:21

affected 70:4

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164:13

agency's 167:18
agree 74:6 87:6 136:14 144:2
151:9 167:23 168:3,13 169:2
175:21 176:5 177:9 179:18 192:13,
14 193:1

agreed 167:12
agreement 7:17 85:17,20 86:7,11,
14 170:22

ahead 29:13 66:7 131:22
aldermen 67:15
all-or- 137:16
allegation 77:18,24 101:13 122:12
allegations 51:10 57:3 65:19
66:22 67:3 70:19 71:1 72:17 73:12
75:17 76:12,22 77:3,10 79:23 80:4
101:10

alleged 57:1 99:13
allowed 10:6
amateurs 139:17
ambience 74:20 97:1
ambush 16:15
amount 201:22
analysis 201:1
analyzed 95:18
analyzing 91:16,17
and/or 63:7 90:16
announced 39:13
answers 42:13 47:1 66:1
anticipating 75:9
Antonio 45:8,23 48:15 188:21
191:9,13,20 192:10 193:16 195:9
197:6,12 201:6

anymore 153:12
anytime 42:12,14
apologize 15:13,20 35:8 43:18
60:6 62:6 99:22 159:17 165:2

 Index: apologizing–bound
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RAHM EMANUEL, 03/29/2018
apologizing 132:13
apparent 192:14
apparently 46:2
appeals 173:7
appeared 193:16
appears 85:5
apples 182:19 185:9
applicable 5:9 7:22 60:16 62:17
122:21

apply 64:23 81:4
applying 57:3
appoint- 57:17
appointed 157:3,23
appointee 57:16,18
approach 163:12
appropriately 88:18 175:3
approved 170:20

assumption 12:6 144:9 150:22,24
151:1 164:17 174:18 200:22

attached 151:2 154:9 155:6
attachment 97:21
attempt 146:23 155:14 179:17
182:16 183:1 195:14

attempted 132:2
attention 69:4,5 75:21 76:7 77:12,

basically 89:3
Basileios 6:6
basis 56:1 199:6,7
basketball 195:20,21
Bates 148:23
befuddles 68:21
began 110:20 112:15 155:7
begin 9:20 75:17 179:23

14 175:3

attorney 16:2 34:1 132:1 141:24

beginning 31:18 48:6 72:2,22
98:3 105:23 177:17

attorney- 136:2
attorneys 5:22 85:20 134:14
attributable 18:20
attributes 41:24
attributing 137:7
authored 160:24 161:3
authority 42:22 55:5 84:6 94:5
137:9 158:8 165:9,16 166:1 174:8

begins 76:18 116:21 159:1
behalf 5:21 6:2 113:14
behavior 33:4
Beile 5:2
belief 198:21
believed 199:9 201:7
believes 80:4 201:5,12

approximately 99:24

Avendano 6:13 89:18

bets 93:11

April 59:1

avoid 187:9

Bettie 8:18 13:10 34:3 35:14 38:1

area 32:8 68:14

aware 13:12,17 19:13 45:6 46:2

areas 50:5 88:5
arguably 95:24

49:6 123:16,24 124:13,21,23
125:8,16,19,22 126:5,12 127:5,13

awareness 48:3 123:14
B

arise 165:14

article 41:22 151:7
articles 11:16,18 150:4 151:2,5,8,
10 152:1 155:5

ask- 68:5

back 14:12 17:11 23:18 41:1,7
49:1 69:24 72:6,9 73:22 103:17,23
105:1,3,11,17,18 118:14,19,23
120:18 125:15 148:9 150:5 153:22
154:1,16 156:12 175:19 188:9
191:1 197:14

back- 143:11

aspect 157:4

backed 187:2

aspects 117:19

background 137:10 149:14 152:2

assigning 139:6
assistance 45:21
assume 173:22 193:6,8
assumes 174:10
assuming 103:11 116:5 173:8

bit 14:13 54:14 59:15 72:21 78:23
181:3 197:13

asks 195:17

assess 132:8

big 27:20
Bill 145:16

argumentative 26:3 40:14 118:12

art 131:2

40:1 76:2,4,6,24 77:6,13 101:12
108:17 111:23 112:15 126:18
127:1,7,9,24 132:9 157:6

154:3,5

bad 35:4 111:17 181:10 182:19
185:9

balances 28:14
Banks 58:1 59:12
based 44:22 57:6 59:7 80:5 119:20
121:2 153:9 154:8,20 192:24

blue 14:24 19:17 109:9,13,15,20
110:3,12 111:11 182:4 184:13,17
186:3

blueprint 24:9
blush 46:22
board 25:10 26:6,16,23 27:23
39:14 40:16 41:2 65:13 104:13
106:2 116:23 146:13,21 147:2
155:18 158:22 159:2 167:13 170:5
171:7 172:13 173:2 174:6 177:19

Board's 29:19 172:21
bodily 51:11 177:12
body 18:3,6 23:8 39:6 47:6 103:6
162:9,14 163:2

bottom 34:4,11 52:1 146:17 147:2
bound 142:8,15

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 Index: break–clean
Page 209

RAHM EMANUEL, 03/29/2018
break 87:15,18 100:14 118:20

camera 18:3 39:6 163:2 190:20

brevity 24:15

cameras 23:8 47:6 162:14

Chicago's 17:12 124:1 182:24

briefer 130:17

capital 27:20 28:19 52:20 108:11

chief 57:15,21 58:1,5 59:11,22

115:18

bring 97:7
Brodsky 6:2 44:24 45:3 68:1 70:2,
22 71:11,14 81:19 86:1,14,17,19,
24 87:24 89:23 90:4,5,11 91:8,13
92:7 93:6,9,13 97:11 105:7 109:24
112:2 113:17,21 118:11 124:9
128:24 130:4,8,12,14,16 131:21,23
133:2,5,14 134:16,21 135:4,22
136:2,6,9,11,16,18 137:20,23
138:2,5,7,14,15,16 140:12 141:5,8,
11,14,21 142:3,5,19,21 143:1,6
144:1,15,18,24 145:3,9 166:12,14
170:7 171:9 173:1 174:11,15
175:13 176:7 183:7 189:19 192:16
194:8,14 195:5 197:12,16 198:5
199:21 200:1,11,13,16 201:10,12
202:1

brother 134:2

capture 179:20
card 190:12,15
cards 190:10
care 87:7
career 53:22
careful 95:23
case 5:14 37:14 49:7 72:6 80:6
90:19 104:6 119:11 127:20 132:4
139:3 141:17 144:16 145:19
146:18 147:19 148:3 149:24 152:7
153:8,22 154:12 156:19 157:4,5,23
160:23 167:5,19 168:14 169:19
171:11 172:24 177:19 189:23
194:10,12 199:16 201:14

cases 110:2 111:17 181:10

brought 36:2,9 69:4 92:2 95:20
122:13 124:18

caused 135:5

brutality 16:7

cease 135:1

build 180:11

Center 5:10 44:22

bullet 51:16,19,20

certification 76:9 77:19,22 78:2

bunch 15:10

80:2 90:24 91:7 101:14

cetera 47:6 67:15 152:24 153:1

Bureau 52:5,10 53:2,10 54:20 55:3
176:21

challenge 83:13

Burge 22:22

champion 88:14

business 5:4 117:9 119:1

chance 41:10 110:18
change 23:21 24:1 27:19 28:3

C

118:22

changed 24:19 54:8,11 117:1,2,5
call 43:14,19,24 45:22,24 48:1 91:1
132:12 133:12 138:18 139:1 151:1
152:3 163:4 197:23 199:7

called 7:2 42:21 45:20 46:2 136:5,
20 138:22 154:21 186:14 196:21

callers 43:13
calling 150:16
callous 198:22 201:6,8
calls 35:16 36:15 39:9 43:1 44:4
45:7,13 46:12,19 47:19 48:11 49:9
81:6 83:15 102:2 106:21 109:3
113:19 122:22 134:20 135:24
142:18 151:15 155:13 170:6 174:9

changing 117:6,21
characterized 101:5
charge 128:2

184:4,22 185:15 194:16

61:3,21 62:10,23 63:13 83:2 84:17
98:6,11,18 142:3

child 198:19
children 152:23 192:19 198:16
200:19,21

Chinese 10:14 12:20 72:3,11
116:16 119:14 128:10 129:11
130:21 131:2,7 140:3 146:3,4,6,8
147:22 158:2,3 170:15

circle 182:21 186:19
Circuit 5:15 173:4
circumstance 114:19
circumstances 42:14 80:6
111:22 189:13

CIT/DEESCALATION 35:4
citizen 44:24 55:6
citizens 24:7 28:16 39:14 53:19
58:13 94:11 108:16 109:16 117:21

city 5:13 6:12,13 7:10 17:14,22
24:7 29:7,11 30:14,16 33:6 35:3
38:13 40:6 42:15 46:17 49:4,21
54:18 57:14,19 58:14,16,19 59:2,4
87:24 93:23 101:6 102:18 103:6
110:10 119:5,7 123:16 124:1,18,23
125:9 126:12 132:1 133:16,20
134:7,11 135:6,10,13 140:21,24
142:8,15 146:15 161:1,12,16
162:3,4 164:4,10,13,19 165:17
166:3,9,19 168:24 170:20 171:5,18
179:23 180:6 194:13,16 197:15
198:22

City's 132:14,18 135:19
civic- 39:14
civilian 44:16,19 45:2,3 50:19
56:11,22 99:5

charged 91:16,17

civilians 167:14

charges 55:11,18

claim 198:21 200:4

check 177:24

claiming 128:6

checks 19:17 28:14

claims 17:9

Chicago 5:6,11,14 6:12,14 7:11

clarify 109:19

16:22 17:14,22 20:14 22:12 24:7
31:3 33:9 40:21 46:13,18 52:4 57:8
108:16 110:21 111:6 114:18
123:17 124:19,24 151:3 161:13,16

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clarity 83:1
clean 19:15,23

 Index: clear–COPA
Page 210

RAHM EMANUEL, 03/29/2018
clear 40:22 60:9 69:22 72:2 91:11
93:15 146:2 158:3 164:12 176:4
199:5

client 86:10 136:3 200:7
close 41:19
code 14:24 29:6 87:24 109:8,12
110:3,12 111:12 168:4,16 177:21
178:8,11 180:20,24 181:22 182:5,
14 183:6,15 184:4,18,23 185:14
186:9 187:3

colleague 111:17 181:11 183:2
185:10

compound 128:3 153:17

consulted 140:18,23

comprehension 68:22

contact 149:13 150:24 154:7

con- 95:2 128:21 140:22 174:18

contained 33:17 50:17

conception 199:19

contention 100:18

concern 53:10 55:16 69:11 71:24

contesting 194:18,19

73:20,21

concerned 75:9
concerns 53:3,17 54:6
concluded 112:15 129:12 174:22
202:16

colleagues 111:18 181:11

concludes 23:4 26:20

Collins 34:14

conclusion 53:20 81:7 83:16

com- 34:12
combination 152:17
comment 74:12 75:10 114:14
comments 127:3 190:3
commitment 35:2,13 37:24 38:8,9
40:4

commitments 40:10
committee 58:12,17 59:6
communicated 156:4 157:10
160:5

communication 34:20 36:14 38:6
64:8

communications 34:13 36:16,19
37:6 39:24 48:15 156:18

102:2 106:22 113:20 122:23
127:23 129:13 142:20 144:4,6

conclusions 13:1,2,4,9 73:1,2
79:11 111:24 129:15

concurred 58:16
concurrence 12:12 13:16
conduct 56:24 60:19 61:3,5 62:23
101:22 153:2

conducted 79:10 100:6
conducting 106:8
confidence 180:11
confine 78:23
confines 41:12 107:20
confirm 19:4 64:17 84:14

context 8:9,20 12:1,17 14:20 15:5,
9 18:12 21:3,8 26:10 34:12,22
36:12,21 43:16 48:8 53:1 55:14,15
98:8 139:4 180:2 185:22 186:2
187:13

contexts 133:8
contextual 9:4 16:21 20:9 151:16
continue 18:7 22:5
continues 106:14
continuing 113:3
contract 142:10,11,16,23 143:4,8,
12

contribution 132:3,19 133:17,20
134:8 135:13 137:15 138:3 197:16,
18 198:21 200:4

control 46:19
controlled 46:13
convenience 66:19
conversation 38:7 120:12 197:11
198:3,6

conversations 188:21 191:9
194:4 195:3 196:6,11,19 197:6

confirmation 62:15

convoluted 65:22 66:1

confirmed 57:19 58:7,11

Cook 5:15

compartmentalize 30:5

confused 60:6

Cooksey 191:10,16 196:6,12

compel 69:23

confusion 108:5

competency 139:12

conjunction 29:20

complaint 90:14

connection 197:14

complaints 55:6 98:12,13,21

consciously 131:12

complete 95:8 107:17

consequences 190:8

completely 91:5 191:5

consistent 29:20 138:24 147:22

community 30:20 39:14 117:21
162:13 163:8

compliance 90:7

163:12 177:7 180:19 187:8

complicated 72:21

consolidated 5:14

comply 88:9 89:3

constraints 37:6

component 27:9,22 31:6 55:19,20

consultant 141:17,19

components 30:7

consultants' 140:23 141:13

Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc.· 312-781-9586

197:7 199:17 201:6

COPA 10:3,4,9,21 12:4,19 13:5,9
14:13,17 18:5 23:8,21 24:22 25:19
26:20 27:3,8,10,22 28:3,5,11,18
29:5,17,24 39:13 40:12,14,15 41:1
44:16,19,24 47:5 49:16 50:9,19,22,
24 51:9 52:19 53:9 55:15,19 56:9,
16 57:13,15,20 59:7 62:10 63:21,
24 64:7,23 66:3,17 69:14,17 70:1,
21 72:3,10,23 73:16 74:6 78:1,11,
14,17 79:7,10,22,23 80:4,17 81:16,
18,23 82:1,3,5,7 83:14 86:20 88:14
89:4,13 90:17 91:16 92:21 93:22,
23 94:5,6,8,13,18 99:16 101:22
102:11 103:24 104:2,12 106:4
107:1,3,12 108:19 111:20 112:3,
10,16 113:11 114:14 116:22 117:1

 Index: Copa's–December
Page 211

RAHM EMANUEL, 03/29/2018
118:24 120:1,23 121:5,8 122:16,21
123:7 128:21 130:20 139:11 142:7,
16 143:5,7,10,15,18,24 145:4
146:24 152:8,19 155:17 161:22
164:12 165:3,16 166:1,8 167:3
168:4 169:4,13 170:5,18 171:7
172:5,23 174:6 175:19 176:1,20,24
177:9,16

COPA's 11:19,23 23:24 26:4 51:6,
9 52:2 56:8 64:12 65:18 66:6 69:9
74:3,10,12 79:15 80:2 82:11,18
88:7 105:23 113:10 115:12 116:15
139:12 169:4 176:11

copies 66:24
copy 16:1 29:24 34:1 42:3,9 49:16,
18 51:6 54:15,17 79:17 97:13

correct 7:12,13,14 9:1 12:5 13:12,
13,18 14:6,17,18 15:1,4 16:9,23
20:16,17,21 21:12 22:3 23:17
25:23 28:6 29:6 30:17,20,23 31:7
33:7 40:16 51:2 55:20 57:14,22
58:6 59:13 64:9 65:5 72:19,20 73:6
76:12 78:11 79:7,8 80:19 81:23
82:4,9 85:4,22,23 86:13 95:11
100:16 103:8 104:15 106:9 110:22
111:4 116:23 117:4,7,10 120:24
121:9 122:8,14 123:11 126:19
127:2 128:23 129:8 130:22,23
133:17 140:4 142:13 143:17,21
144:1,11,21,24 150:21 151:17
154:9 164:14 169:20 170:20
172:14 173:1 180:4 183:24 184:1
185:21,23,24 188:7 189:21 200:22,
23

correctly 150:18 174:20 187:23,
24

counterclaim 197:14,17

crime 20:15 31:4

country 36:20,23 151:14

criminal 52:11

County 5:16

criminals 109:16

couple 41:15,24 89:15 91:3

crises 43:2 48:12

188:20

court 5:8,15 6:16 7:19,21,22 8:13
9:3,8 13:24 15:11,17 17:4 19:10,
11,21,23 20:2 32:16 36:6,9 38:18
44:14,18 46:6 48:18,20 67:21
70:16 73:2,7,18 74:5,18,23 75:6
79:3 82:1,10,13 84:10,20 85:2,8,16
86:2,18,22 87:2,7,12 89:12,19
91:19 92:9,13,19,24 93:10 95:1,3,6
96:9,11,14 97:5 100:23 102:8
103:17,22 104:5 105:3,5 109:11
112:10 118:13,19 121:15 122:24
124:11 131:20,22 133:1,3 134:12
137:22 138:15 140:3 141:9,12,15,
24 144:13,16,19 149:2,19 153:21
154:5,22 155:20 166:21 169:8,11,
22,24 172:19 173:4,8 174:14
178:14 181:15 182:9 183:11
184:10 185:22 186:17,23 188:23
189:9 190:22,24 191:5 193:12,22
194:23 195:6 199:22 200:5,12
201:1,13,19

courtroom 145:18 189:15
cover 111:17 181:1,10
coverage 148:6
covered 64:14 79:12 96:18 197:1,
12

covers 142:12
coverup 180:16

crisis 42:24 43:6 48:10 49:8 180:6
CT 34:24 37:22
Cuba 36:16 150:8 154:1,16 155:14
culmination 112:13
culture 14:23 30:19 110:11 111:1,
3,4 117:22

current 76:9 78:2 101:15
custody 51:12 177:12
cuts 170:4
D
dad 190:11,15
Daley 5:10
damages 194:17,18,19
Daniel 6:10
date 5:17 7:18 34:5 35:23 37:11,
12,13 38:3 120:22 139:8 150:6
154:19

dates 100:15 191:22
day 8:22,23 21:16 28:12 154:16
days 24:1 39:12 62:2 78:10 82:22
83:7 91:3,17 94:8 100:9 148:6
156:12,15 168:9 169:14

corruption 55:4

coverups 182:14

de- 40:9 115:13

costs 33:5

CPD 99:1,3 159:10 170:4 176:21

deadly 80:1

Council 29:7,11 30:14,17 38:13
40:6 49:21 54:18 57:14,19 58:17,
19 59:2 93:23 102:18 103:7 110:10
119:7 146:15 164:10 165:17 166:3
168:24 170:20 171:5,18

Council's 164:4
Councils 59:4
counsel 20:4 50:13 87:5 89:16,20
102:18,23 103:5 115:21 135:16
136:5,14 161:9 181:19 198:8

177:10 178:18 183:6,15 186:9

create 14:15 24:23 36:12 52:19
72:10 161:15,21 194:5 195:4,6,7,
10

created 28:5 50:22 55:8 56:17
57:13 88:14,16 93:22,23 94:14
161:23

deal 134:4 194:7 195:11
dealing 59:1 163:14
dealt 40:21
death 51:11 52:14 75:24 76:3 77:5,
7 127:24 132:9 157:5 177:11
193:23 194:12

creating 52:18

deaths 8:17 111:22 112:14

creation 14:13 24:22 28:18 40:12

December 8:16 9:12 12:2 13:9

53:9 55:15,19 104:19 108:10

counseling 60:23

credentials 58:20

count 201:21

credit 117:23

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30:8,13,23 34:5 38:12,13 41:23
43:8 47:15 49:10 54:15,17 66:2,5,
6,17 72:19 78:8 79:20 110:9 111:1
139:2,4 156:16 185:14,18 186:8
191:20

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decide 88:12

depends 9:14 186:19

disagree 167:24 168:3

decided 158:5

depose 41:14

disagreed 121:4,7 167:13

deciding 12:17

deposition 5:4,7,12,19 7:16,20

disagreeing 93:7

decision 54:9,10 102:22 128:12
134:18 138:18 139:6 163:24
189:10,11

decisions 61:11 80:24 81:2 82:16
146:13

deemed 127:6
deeming 31:22 112:16
deescalation 18:5 23:9 35:3 39:9
47:7 162:13 163:6 188:3,16

deficiencies 43:2
define 74:18
defined 50:24 51:1 56:9 168:23
182:13 186:3

defines 59:21

8:1,9 9:22 83:21 97:14 113:23
118:16 125:2,13 126:3,4,9,14
187:9 189:3 190:18 199:18 202:10,
13,16

depositions 190:4
derive 158:7
derives 165:9,16
describe 24:8 25:19 63:14 111:3,
15 119:8 132:21

disagreements 165:23
disagrees 73:7
discerns 118:5
disciplinary 60:14 61:7,23 62:18
64:1,24 142:17

discipline 61:22 80:2 81:5 82:19
83:3 90:15,18 91:2,11 142:12

disciplined 49:8 142:10 143:3

describes 51:9 52:10 62:13

disciplining 139:7

describing 30:1 41:23 60:10 61:2

disclosed 141:18

65:2 110:2,21

description 52:3 62:17 89:7
deserve 117:24

discoverable 190:18
discovery 5:12 7:16,24 83:21
125:1 126:14 128:7

deserves 42:13

discuss 136:20

detail 8:10,13

discussed 24:18 38:11 52:22,23

definition 90:11 186:15

detailed 39:4

68:15 82:17 83:10 88:19 96:21
157:4

definitively 107:11

determinations 167:19

deliberate 147:5

determine 20:18 43:2 57:2 160:5

delineated 64:13 69:1 84:4 85:21

determined 13:9

defining 16:21 20:14 31:3 59:3
110:21 114:18

94:19 107:6 108:23 119:21 166:4

delineates 81:3 82:17 83:9
delineation 109:14
deny 111:16 181:9
dep 72:23 92:1 103:15
dep- 201:22
depart- 68:12
department 5:16 21:1 23:17 24:23
25:21 28:5 31:12,22 42:21 46:13,
18 47:16,18 52:13 54:21 55:3 57:8
60:15,16 61:24 80:16 83:6 84:15
88:16 89:10 93:24 94:2 98:15
106:8 109:15 111:2,7 113:5 117:22
122:13,14,17 124:1 158:11 164:22
175:4 183:4 184:4,22 185:8,15

department's 52:5 167:5
department- 123:10
departments 170:17 185:2
departure 106:6

discussing 29:15 72:23 108:7
discussion 52:17 58:19 118:3
120:17

determining 161:22

dispatch 46:12

development 28:3,18

dispatched 46:20 47:19

device 5:4

dispatchers 43:24 46:15

differed 163:16

dispatching 163:5

difference 128:20 144:3

dispute 174:3

differentiates 105:24

distill 103:18

differently 20:19

distilled 105:5

differs 63:6 86:20,23 90:16

distinction 28:2 80:10 167:9

direct 46:18 47:19 97:15 181:15

distinguish 10:16 43:18

186:6 195:9

directed 177:3
directing 183:11 189:5 191:2
direction 76:2 77:6 157:14
directive 122:10
directly 116:24
director 39:13 59:10
dis- 102:14

dependent 144:8,10

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distinguished 52:13
distinguishes 52:3
distinguishing 163:3
distributing 137:7
distribution 137:18
Division 5:16
document 20:22 80:22 106:22
116:15 144:12 149:7,20,23 175:20,
24 176:13 179:9,11

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documents 9:24 68:23
domain 11:15 13:7 70:8,10 71:9,
12,20 73:3,16 92:11 182:23

doorbell 127:10
draw 95:2 146:18,19 167:9
drive 195:20

42:20

emergency 44:12,13,21

exact 103:11 112:20,21

emotional 138:17

EXAMINATION 7:4 130:13

empathize 198:18
employee 62:16
empowered 164:15 165:3

driven 123:11

EMT 39:9 43:12,18,23 44:3

driving 152:5 158:1 166:1
due 138:5

EMTS 44:4,12
enacted 65:15

duly 7:2 114:1

end 48:6 67:8 69:16 111:18 163:10

duties 59:21 60:11
duty 60:17,20

172:4,7,15,17,20 173:16,17 202:9,
10

ended 72:1,6
E
earlier 22:18 24:5,18 38:11 52:17
54:15 63:20 71:17 96:21,24 108:4
145:22,23 161:11 165:4 179:22
181:5 182:3 184:24 190:10

ex- 136:22

ends 138:13
engaged 168:15 199:19
enjoy 97:1 103:16
ensure 20:19 25:15 76:8 77:19
78:1

145:13

examined 7:3
excessive 51:18 52:15 87:1 90:21
98:13,22 99:4,13,15 104:7

excuse 33:4,23
executive 7:13 100:4 161:12
exhibit 15:24 16:2 18:17,24 19:2,
10,24 20:2 30:12 33:3,12,17,23
34:4,9 37:16,18,19,20 41:18,22
48:7 49:17 51:6,10 52:2 54:14
56:6,10 59:20 75:15 79:6,14,20
80:11,12 83:21 100:10 110:8,16
122:6 123:5 148:17 149:18 154:2
155:22 176:17 177:4,6

exhibits 19:13 38:11
exist 178:18
existed 25:11 163:17 186:9

ease 76:15

entered 124:24 126:4,14

exists 25:9 155:10 183:6,15

ed 6:12 16:3 18:19 19:3,5 24:4 30:8

entire 28:15 58:18 154:12 173:6

exonerate 90:20,23 94:10 101:9

38:12 39:1 40:5,23

Eddie 12:12 13:15 65:18 79:22
83:22 89:8 97:13 116:8 117:16
120:23 125:1

185:22 187:13

entirety 187:12

exonerate- 90:19

entities 47:22 131:3 140:7

exonerated 77:11 87:1 114:16

edification 153:10

entitled 30:19 61:11 108:18

edit 32:15

entity 24:23 26:18 28:6,19 29:5

editorial 35:1 37:23 38:20 39:18
40:8

education 137:10
efficient 56:23
effort 26:14 27:7 119:6,9,10
146:24 155:21 162:2

efforts 123:14 132:14 135:13
eight-page 149:15,19
eighth 51:24
elect 138:20 150:10
elected 12:21 67:14 128:16
eloquent 164:6
email 36:18
emails 159:9,20 160:4,23
Emanuel 5:12 6:15 7:1,9,16 34:13

113:16

46:14 72:15 108:11 164:19

Escalante 36:17 154:13 155:14
156:6,18

128:1,2

exonerating 91:15 101:20
exp- 197:19
expedience 97:16
expeditiously 59:6

essence 16:6 23:17

expert 141:20

essential 187:22 188:15

experts 140:17

establish 200:7

explain 63:15 84:24 146:7

established 57:20 133:22 175:18

explicit 92:17

199:3

estate 132:7 145:17 148:12
et al 5:14

express 134:3 135:17 199:7
expressed 73:21 135:7 136:24
194:23 198:23 200:18

evaluated 140:5

expression 138:19 152:23

evaluation 97:8

expressly 101:9,15 114:15

evening 49:10

extension 82:23

events 8:16 43:8 151:11

extent 50:2 134:20 135:24

evidence 57:4 91:16 174:10

exterior 170:15

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extra 79:17

feels 94:18

forget 107:24

extreme 187:20

fellow 91:15 101:20 113:14,16

forgot 92:3

eye 192:24

felt 53:19,21 136:24

form 16:24 38:15 46:5 48:17 53:6,

fifteen 202:14
F
face 93:15,16
facing 20:14 31:3
fact 19:4 27:4 37:13 48:4 49:7 54:7
67:17 69:3 84:8 91:6 94:1 127:1
171:19 175:18

facts 144:6,23 174:10
factual 45:12,19
factually 8:22 46:3
failed 31:13,22 32:22 75:20 76:6,8
77:11,13,18 78:1

failure 80:1 101:13
fair 24:21 37:8 40:6 46:9 63:19
80:4 97:8 108:6 129:14 131:6
151:5 152:9 155:7 158:18 161:10,
23 164:2 166:6,11 180:8

Fairley 57:21,24
fairly 56:23 106:17
faith 38:4 115:22
faithful 129:10
falter 29:3
familiarize 151:11
families 189:24 195:15
family 108:17,18 126:19 133:9,11
135:8,17 150:8 151:15 152:22
154:1,7,21 155:15,23 195:17,18

family's 137:3
faster 36:1 69:3 95:14 130:5
father 45:23 132:13 134:1 136:20
137:13 191:14 192:19 196:21
198:16 200:19

fault 137:7,18
FCRL 148:23
February 76:10 78:3
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99:7

figure 13:1
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185:9

14 102:1 109:2 112:2,6 113:17,19,
21 115:3 117:11 129:1 137:19
153:15 166:14 167:20 168:17
169:6 180:9,21

formed 112:4

filed 186:22 197:15

fortune 153:24

filing 132:19 135:10 137:15

forward 17:19 23:3 39:19,21

fin- 167:11
final 10:20 54:11 65:11,12 77:17
93:11 106:1,13 163:24 164:4
167:11,15

find 147:2 153:18,21 161:6 195:24
finding 55:17 92:21 93:17,18
121:7 144:4 169:14

findings 26:21 53:4,12 63:22
65:19 66:18,19 69:20 70:1,17,20,
22 72:22 73:4 74:3,4,6,10,12 75:10
76:14 79:7 80:10 82:3 83:14 89:8
92:1,5 94:6,8 101:19,23 113:14
116:8 118:6 128:22 131:4 144:21,
23 152:9 169:13

fine 15:16 67:16 68:3
finish 87:17 133:1
finished 133:3
fired 75:22 76:2 77:4,6
firefighters 43:17 44:3
fix 16:19 43:2
fixing 16:12 17:24
focus 30:6 34:19
follow 34:10 58:24 94:15 143:5
145:23

58:15,16 59:5 97:3 106:14 111:5
115:15 167:12

found 60:15 72:23 73:16,18 105:7
144:6 156:10

foundation 35:17 78:13 83:16
95:15 112:7 120:2 128:4 171:8

founded 57:3 102:12 161:22
fourth 45:22,23 67:4 197:2
Foutris 6:6 19:8 66:10,13 69:22
74:13 85:10,18,24 86:3 87:6,14,19
89:18 95:19 110:1 145:14,16
148:22 149:4,6,22 151:19 152:4
153:18 155:3 156:1 159:18 166:20
167:1 168:1,12 169:1,10,23 170:1
171:3 172:1,17,22 173:5 174:23
175:15 176:23 177:5,8 178:2,7,13,
15,21 179:2,7,11,15 180:14 181:4,
8,14,18,22 182:2,10 183:8,13,22
184:2,11 185:18 186:5,16,21
187:2,15 188:10,18 189:1,7 190:9,
14,21 191:4,7 192:23 193:11,14,
21,23 194:2,13,16,22 195:2,8
196:17 197:18,21 198:1 199:14,24
200:3,9 201:4,17 202:2,7

Fraternal 142:9
fray 147:6
free 16:13,16 34:23 99:7 131:10

follow-ups 145:21

frequency 43:20,22

FOP 143:8

front 38:20 149:7 152:15 155:6

force 24:5 27:4,18 28:21 39:2,10,
19 42:13 47:2 51:18 52:15 54:19
80:1 87:1 90:21 98:13,22 99:5,14,
16 104:8 119:6 162:1,6,8,18
163:19 164:2 170:11,19 171:20
179:21 187:20 194:14

force's 29:3
forensic 139:16 140:14

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full 45:16
full-time 59:9
fully 17:23 179:20
future 19:12 75:1

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halfway 112:4
G

hand 118:17 130:6

Honor 15:14 22:4 68:15 69:6,13
70:6,8 71:23 73:19 75:8 88:12,13
169:21 177:23 187:5,14 200:16,24
201:3 202:4

gag 189:20

handful 55:10,18

gain 154:23

handle 43:1 48:11 126:11

host 54:5 128:17 162:15

gather 144:22

handled 46:20 98:22

hour 96:15,18

gathered 47:20

handling 50:24

hours 152:7 153:9 178:1 202:14

gave 16:1 30:14 39:2 48:8 54:14

happen 20:20 59:2 159:7

House 192:3,4

happened 8:23 21:3 28:20 31:11,

housing 195:24

110:9 116:15

general 126:15,16,17 136:23
185:2 196:14,16

get- 160:19
give 8:20 9:24 14:20 16:1 17:10
25:5 27:6 28:15 34:11,22 37:5 42:3
49:16,18 50:1 82:3,7 117:17
148:16 166:22

giving 30:16 118:8
goal 23:7 24:16 27:10 115:2 117:9
goals 52:18
good 7:6 35:4 87:14 97:1 117:16
153:24 174:14 175:6 182:18

government 131:3 180:6
great 41:16 68:23
grew 28:4,8 53:2,9 55:16 106:7,10
grief 193:3 194:7 195:11 199:2

18 45:13 48:14 146:18 147:3
163:11,16 167:19 192:2,4 196:23
197:13 198:17

How's 147:22
hundreds 55:9,17

happening 36:22

husband 134:1 137:12

happy 41:14

hypothetical 175:5,7,10

hard 15:15

hypothetically 175:1

harmed 190:1
I

Harrington's 141:6,8
hate 27:19

ia 92:11

Havana 148:8

idea 125:21 135:12 140:9 141:16

heading 75:9 111:4
health 18:5 23:9 39:9 43:2,19 47:7
48:12,24 49:1 163:4

hear 118:15 188:10
heard 188:12 199:16

142:2 157:12,24 159:22 160:2
170:19 174:17

identification 15:24 30:12 33:24
122:7 148:20,22

identified 33:16 88:4 107:11
125:12

hearings 68:15 69:2

identifies 62:8

grieve 42:14

heart 13:8 111:8 184:16

identify 57:4 116:20

grieving 192:15 194:24 196:7

heavy 193:17

ignore 33:4 111:16 181:9

ground 145:24

helped 194:20 195:4,19 197:3

ignores 91:5,6

group 24:6

high 163:10

Illegal 181:2

groups 48:4

highest 7:13 18:9 23:15 183:3

Illinois 5:6,8,11,16 7:21 173:8

200:7,20

growing 53:10 54:3
guess 32:2 49:2 59:6 68:2 118:11
124:8 125:8 170:17,24

guessing 48:22 50:18 135:11
156:20

185:6

highlight 91:5
Hilton 192:3,5
hired 28:10 140:11
hirees 140:8

guided 102:23 103:9
guides 42:24 48:11
guys 32:14 86:11

history 17:13 22:11,14 23:3 53:2,
11 55:16

hold 60:2 190:13
home 75:23 77:4

H
half 96:16,18 152:6 153:9 154:16

honest 114:3 157:1
honestly 174:4

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imagine 200:20
immediately 42:23 152:21
impact 46:19 131:11 143:8
impetus 48:23 54:2
impetuses 53:18 67:13
Implement- 163:22
implemented 8:19 27:6 162:2,17
163:20,21,22 180:1

implementing 29:3 39:20 162:16
163:23 164:1

implied 199:18

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important 38:22 96:1
imposed 62:18

123:15 124:2 134:20 136:1,15
148:12 149:14 150:1,13 152:2
153:7 154:5,8,17,24 156:5,7
160:22 171:11 194:9 200:2

impression 43:13

initial 57:21 69:23 156:5

improper 87:21

initially 57:20

improve 57:8

initiating 99:11

inappropriate 119:13 128:14,18

injury 51:12 52:14 75:24 77:5

inception 147:19
incident 9:1,9,12 12:5 27:12 31:10
34:3,22 41:24 45:6 71:22 79:11
99:14 148:7 154:6,24

incidents 17:12 20:19 57:9 60:13
125:20

include 26:22 60:21 62:14 83:8
171:5

including 43:12 57:1 60:17 108:16
163:14 173:7 187:12

inconclusivity 53:19
inconsistent 157:17 196:3
inde- 119:17 146:13
independence 25:6,16,21 26:12,
17 27:7,20 28:15 53:18,24 54:1
93:23,24 104:4 115:8,18 116:19
128:15

independent 24:23 26:14 27:10,
21 28:6,19 42:21 48:4 52:19 55:5
72:3,14,15 88:17 99:17 101:22,23
104:1,2,5,9,11 105:23 108:11
111:24 114:21 117:22 119:17
122:16 140:6,22 141:12,16,19
145:5 146:14,15,16,21 158:10,11,
12 167:3,6,18 169:5 170:12,14

independently 111:21
indicating 8:24 155:22 159:9
indication 114:13
individual 23:6 50:16
individuals 39:15 127:17 139:18

177:12

innocent 127:17
innumerable 36:3

11 53:3,11 54:3,20 55:3 88:15
97:17 98:6,11,19 104:8 106:8
176:1,21 177:15

Internet 71:21
interpret 51:5
interpretation 87:23 103:5 107:18
158:15 165:15,23

interpreted 165:19 166:5
interpreting 88:1 103:2
interrupt 36:1 109:11 133:6
144:14 172:10

input 50:16

intervening 21:14

inquire 68:17

intervention 42:24 43:6 48:10

inquiry 68:14 136:13
insensitive 132:20 133:16,19
inside 103:6
inspection 190:20
instance 5:20 175:4
instances 40:21 132:23 178:17
Instanter 5:3
instituted 118:24 146:4
institutes 146:5
instruct 100:3
instructed 96:21
instructing 135:19
integrity 26:1 114:23 117:24
intend 90:15 172:22
intended 95:24 102:24 105:22
146:14

intendent 175:22

49:9

intimately 28:17,23
Intimately- 28:20
introduce 5:23 6:17 145:16
introduction 31:7
invest- 139:16
investigate 89:10 94:3 99:4 113:5
175:17,22 176:6

investigated 12:5 40:2 52:4 98:14
99:16 111:20 122:13

investigates 42:22 51:10 54:21
55:4,6 176:20,22 177:10

investigating 28:6 101:24 102:13
104:9,10,15,20 114:20 176:12

investigation 10:17 12:24 26:15
27:11 61:4 62:23,24 63:21 64:18
79:10,16 84:18 99:12,17 100:5,6
112:5,14,19 113:10 114:21 144:3,
5,7,20,22 145:5 146:11,17 153:1
154:22 155:7,15 158:17 159:1,5,11

intends 63:5,6,11,12 90:13

investigation's 155:16

intent 127:7 173:15

investigations 12:3 26:21 51:1

intention 115:10 172:4

53:13 54:4,5 56:24 57:1,7 61:5
101:23 106:9 117:23 123:11

interest 24:15

investigator 64:9 140:14

inflection 17:14 179:23

interfere 129:6

investigators 139:13,16 159:10

influence 131:10 158:13 170:16

interference 131:5

investigatory 139:12 148:1

influenced 190:2

interfering 12:24 92:18

influences 146:24

interim 58:1 59:11

investments 17:17

information 8:23,24 9:8,11,16

interject 19:8

Invites 102:3

internal 23:7,20 24:2 28:4,8 52:5,

involve 109:8

189:24

14:11,19 47:20 57:6 60:18 63:8

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67:16 69:14 103:4 128:23 137:8
159:6 191:6

involvement 47:19 139:5
involves 170:14
involving 9:9 43:1 48:11 104:7
IPRA 23:6,16,20,23 24:1,11 25:4
28:4,8 31:24 32:3,13,20 40:11
50:22 53:2,5,10 54:3,7 88:14
102:13 106:7 112:3,10,15 117:1
177:16

IPRA's 55:7,16

127:23 130:20

joke 108:3
Jon 22:22

irrelevant 201:12
irrespective 10:8
issue 31:3,4 43:7 48:5 105:8
125:19 129:8,23

issued 10:18 12:12 13:15 16:3
65:18 66:3,17 101:3 124:19

issues 20:15,16 45:7 49:1 61:22
83:3 182:23 185:6

issuing 113:14
items 23:10 52:21,23 91:1 176:2
J
Jack 6:8
Janet 191:10,16 196:6,12 197:7
201:6

Janey 149:1,2,16
January 69:24
jerk 182:21 185:10 186:18
job 21:16 117:16 134:5
jobs 194:5 195:4,10
Joe 5:2
Joel 6:2 130:15
jog 192:5
John 36:16,17 154:13 155:13
Johnson 12:13 13:15 65:18 78:10
79:22 83:22 89:9,17 99:2 101:3
113:1,2 117:16 120:1 128:22
157:2,10 167:6 188:3,16

Johnson's 87:9 97:14 116:8
120:23 123:17 124:20 125:1

90:23

justified 187:21

Jonathan 6:4

K

Jones 5:13 6:1,4 8:18 13:11 34:3
35:14 38:2 40:2 76:3,4,7,24 77:6,
13 101:12 111:23 112:15,24
126:19 127:1,7,9,24 132:9 157:6

Jones' 108:17
Jr 5:24
judge 9:5 11:10 15:15 17:1 19:15,

IPRA/COPA 98:23 100:6 115:12

justification 75:19 76:5,23,24

19 22:5 27:14 35:19,24 44:11,16
53:15 68:10,21 69:17,20,22 70:2,
12,23 71:5,10,16 72:16 73:10,14
74:11,14 75:2,13 76:17 78:21 79:1,
17 81:8,15,20,22 82:6 83:23 84:3
85:5,13,14,19 86:1,5,15 87:10,15,
20 88:22,24 89:15 90:1,4,5,9 92:3,
16 93:2,5,8,14 94:16 95:13,16
96:3,13,17 97:23 99:21 100:14,18,
21 102:6 103:15 104:14,17,23
105:9 109:20,22 110:6 112:8
113:22 114:4,10 115:5 117:12
118:7,22 120:12 121:11 123:20
124:7 125:4,8,11,14 128:5 129:23
130:1 131:1,14,17 134:23 136:7,12
137:10,24 138:8,13 141:3,7 142:22
143:2 145:1,7 148:20 153:16
159:14 166:17,23 167:22 168:2,19
169:18 170:8 171:12 172:9,15
173:1 176:10,13,17,20 177:3,4
178:3,6,11,19,23 179:5,13 180:23
181:6,12,21 182:6 183:18,23 184:7
185:17,19 186:1,3,6,12,21 187:1,
11 188:5,11 189:5,8,19,22 190:13,
19 192:17 193:10,19 194:11,21
196:9,15 199:13 200:14,17 201:15,
23 202:5

judgment 14:10,11 26:5,15 54:10
87:23 107:19 115:14 147:5 167:5,
10 168:11

judgments 146:19 147:3
juncture 189:22 190:3,5
jurisdiction 51:1,7 52:3,10 57:1
60:13 94:3 102:16,24 103:10
115:23 116:1 119:12 129:16
168:23

jurisdictions 94:2 123:6
justice 20:16 30:19 31:5
justifi- 121:8

Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc.· 312-781-9586

Kennedy 6:8 22:2 85:23 190:17
201:13 202:4

key 27:22
kick 140:9
kids 190:23 195:20 198:17
killed 94:10
killing 101:11
kind 17:10,13,24 54:7 95:17 103:4
156:18 158:13 163:10,15,16

knee 182:21 185:10 186:18
knot 90:2
knowing 22:14 39:7
knowledge 45:15,17 123:14
126:23 139:11,18,19,22 157:7
159:8 161:5

L
lack 35:17 83:16 112:7 120:2 128:3
laid 72:18 91:24 169:11
language 187:6
Laquan 16:22 21:11 180:3,16
largely 8:15
larger 20:15 31:4 44:7
Larry 5:24 10:13 22:19 27:2 40:13
45:10 48:22 66:11,24 87:19 103:21
105:21 108:4 115:17 129:17
130:11

Lasalle 5:5
laser 76:9 77:19
Latarsha 5:13
Late 42:20
Law 5:16 124:1
law-abiding 109:16
lawsuit 132:7
lawyer 103:14,20,21 105:9 123:3
126:10 133:21 134:5 137:11,24

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lawyers 9:23 15:10 103:13 125:9,
16 126:13 130:3 135:19 138:11

lay 95:15
layers 25:12,14,15
lead 74:15 144:20 171:9,10 174:15
175:14 194:9 200:1

leader 111:6 184:15
leadership 20:24 28:11 31:11,21
leading 8:16,19 55:18
leak 190:7
leaks 190:6
leap 38:4 115:22
learned 98:6,18 157:16,18,21
led 55:10 108:10 119:6,9 162:2
left 51:14
legal 81:6 83:15 87:22 88:4,12
95:2 102:2,18 103:12 106:21
113:20 122:22 129:10 134:4 137:6,
23 138:9,11 142:20,24 143:1
144:12 164:16,19 175:4 199:1,4,9
201:7

legislative 50:13 165:21
legislatively 56:16
Legrier 6:7,9,10 8:17 13:11 35:15
38:2 40:1 45:8,14,20,23 48:16
75:18,21 76:23 77:12 101:12
111:23 112:14 132:7,9 145:17
148:12 150:17 157:6 191:9,10,13,
14,17,20 192:10 193:2 195:10
197:6,12 198:7 199:20 201:6

Legrier's 108:17 132:13 136:20
145:17 150:1

Legrier/jones 132:2

life 33:5 42:15 58:13

maintaining 194:17

lighter 91:2

major 25:1

likes 90:8

make 9:5 12:18 17:16,19 18:7,10

limit 30:5 74:16
limited 60:22 71:17 91:22 92:13
lines 200:3
lion's 21:15 185:7

maker 164:1

lip 95:17

makes 26:22 54:9 63:22 168:14
169:4

list 162:22

making 28:2 29:2 36:15 54:6

listening 71:18

69:12 119:13 144:5 150:12 151:1
160:17 171:21 180:11

lists 51:10
literally 150:21

man 46:2

litigation 8:12 123:15 133:23

man- 44:13

198:12

management 44:22 201:14

local 5:9 7:22

maneuver 199:1,10 201:7

location 7:18
loneliness 195:16

March 5:17 12:11 13:14 65:17

longer 65:12
looked 48:6 164:16
loss 42:15 134:3 154:7 192:15,22
193:17,21,22 195:11 196:8 198:12,
19 199:8 200:21

lost 133:9 138:21 150:11 195:19
lot 25:11 28:22 36:1 38:6 44:11
48:4 49:15 54:2 119:9 140:17
145:20 164:3 182:18,19 185:2
201:18

loved 133:9 138:21 150:10,11
154:8

letters 86:8

76:10 78:3 97:15 100:9 101:2
113:13 119:24 120:23 122:20
123:18 124:20 162:7

mark 15:23 20:2 41:18 49:17
66:10,13 83:20 97:9 100:10

marked 18:17 19:9,24 20:5 30:11
33:23 154:2

Mat- 22:20
material 14:9 47:3
materials 11:22 36:2 68:16,18,24
75:2 96:19

matter 5:13 20:11 67:16 153:2

luck 174:14

156:8 157:11 159:21 160:6 161:1,3
183:4 191:6

Lucky 41:13

Mayor 5:12 6:15 7:10,16 8:4,7,11

letter 12:12,14,15,22 13:16,20 14:2

letter's 120:4

manifestations 193:3
manner 102:17

long 162:22

lets 82:1
65:18 72:13 79:22 84:1 100:11
101:3,6 114:5,13 119:24 121:18,19
122:19 123:18 124:20 130:21
168:14,20 169:20

23:11,12 24:17 48:1 57:7,17 67:12,
13,23 72:12 87:22 103:7 115:22
119:7,12 131:9,17 132:12 146:10,
23 147:3 151:15,24 152:3 160:22
162:2 166:17 178:1 185:6

M
made 14:22 20:10 24:6 28:20 39:3
40:10 43:14 45:6,8,22 46:17 48:13
49:2,10 70:20 71:2 107:12 115:11
116:20 121:8 126:2,24 132:17
146:13 147:5 150:9 162:8 167:13
185:17 190:17 199:5

level 18:8 20:24

main 26:13

Lieutenant 141:5,8

maintain 80:1 91:6

Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc.· 312-781-9586

9:16 10:7 19:9 22:24 27:17 34:13
57:16 68:16 69:6 70:1,5,24 71:6,24
72:6 89:19 91:23 92:20 96:20
102:19 103:14 105:19 108:6 110:4,
8 116:18 119:19 120:21 123:13
130:10,15 131:7 134:13,23 135:16
138:9,20 141:16 144:20 145:15
146:15 149:4 150:10 155:21
158:12 161:14,15 164:10 166:15
170:13 172:20 173:9 174:7 177:21
181:15 186:23 188:7 194:19 195:3
198:10 200:13

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Mayor's 69:5 70:8 73:20 95:10
148:24 200:17

Mayoral 162:8

minute 87:4

newspaper 11:4,16,17 19:3 41:22

minutes 96:14 118:14 127:12

newspapers 13:7 14:5 30:10

178:2,4 202:14

Mcdonald 16:23 21:11 180:3,16

mischaracterizes 11:8 149:17

meaning 11:16 18:19 26:14 27:9

misconduct 51:22 52:12 57:2,5,9

29:17 53:19 67:15 109:23 113:5
148:13 161:8

60:20 98:12 104:7 122:12 123:10
178:18

means 56:23 90:17 132:5

mission 56:9,11,21 59:7

meant 115:18 146:14

mistaken 24:4

medi- 76:7

moment 16:21 17:13 20:14 29:24

media 147:8,13,15 148:5 152:8
197:1 199:15

71:15,19 199:23
71:13 92:14 121:1

ninth 51:24
nominated 58:7,10
non- 12:11 13:15
noncompound 118:20
nonconcurrence 101:6 130:21

31:3 36:22 43:14 48:7 50:10 106:3
110:21 114:18 195:16

nondisciplinary 82:19 83:4
nonresponsive 22:3

moments 23:2

norm 102:20

money 52:12

normal 151:14

meet 195:15

months 39:20 58:15 197:14

North 5:5

meeting 191:19,23 192:9 193:1,17

mother 191:16 195:18,22 197:10

Nos 148:23

motion 69:23 124:18

notations 19:12

move 22:2 59:6 74:4 88:23 97:3

notch 139:16

medical 44:14,15 75:21 76:7
77:12,13

195:2

member 122:13 195:17
members 36:18 60:15 61:24 83:5
119:7 146:16 151:15 195:18

memo 149:11,15 150:4,12,23
152:14 153:13 154:20 155:5

memorialized 29:6
memory 27:2 29:21 127:4 154:20
159:12 178:24 192:5 197:5

memos 148:2,5 160:23
MENSA 86:6
mental 18:5 23:9 39:9 43:1,15,18
47:7 48:12,24 49:1 163:4

mentioned 23:16 48:7 75:3 146:3

106:14 111:5 172:2 177:20 195:23

moved 47:9 123:17 124:24
moves 106:13 107:18 115:15
movie 109:24

note 35:2 190:10,12,15
noted 106:11 114:1
notes 190:17
notice 7:17

moving 114:21 168:10
multiple 36:15,16,19 75:22 77:4
176:9 186:11

notified 154:14
number 21:22 53:3 90:12 102:21
150:16 179:14 183:12,19

multistage 63:20
multistep 116:21
multitask 95:3

numbers 148:11,17 154:6
numeral 150:16
numerous 154:15 199:6

municipal 29:6

nutshell 147:6,7 166:8

mentions 48:9
N

mere 139:17
messages 34:18 159:20 160:5,23

name's 130:15

met 9:23 126:18 192:21 193:7

Naomi 6:13

Metcalf 17:11 22:20 41:7

nature 152:3 153:2 161:23

microphone 130:7

nauseam 69:2 94:21 167:3,8

middle 106:14 115:12,19 116:11
119:10 128:11,13 131:12 162:16
179:24

mind's 192:24
minded 39:15
mine 57:19 70:15 97:18,20 119:5,8

169:11 201:2

necessarily 8:22
needed 17:15,19 28:16
Nefarious 181:1
neighborhood 195:23

126:5 181:19

Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc.· 312-781-9586

O
O'HARA 9:5 11:10 15:15 17:1
19:15,19 22:5 27:14 35:19,24
44:11,16 53:15 68:21 69:17,20
70:12,23 71:5,10,16 72:16 73:10,
14 74:11,14 75:2,13 76:17 78:21
79:1,17 81:8,15,22 82:6 83:23 84:3
85:5,14,19 86:5,15 87:10 88:22,24
89:15 90:1,5,9 92:3,16 93:2,5,8,14
94:16 95:13,16 96:3,17 97:23
99:21 100:14,18,21 102:6 103:15
104:14,17,23 105:9 109:20,22
110:6 112:8 113:22 115:5 117:12
118:22 120:12 121:11 123:20
124:7 125:4,8,14 128:5 129:23

 Index: O-–paragraphs
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RAHM EMANUEL, 03/29/2018
131:1,14,17 134:23 136:7,12
137:24 138:8,13 141:3,7 142:22
143:2 145:1,7 148:20 153:16
159:14 166:17,23 167:22 168:2,19
169:18 170:8 171:12 172:9,15
176:10,13,17,20 177:4 178:3,6,11,
19,23 179:5,13 180:23 181:6,12,21
182:6 183:18,23 184:7 185:17,19
186:1,3,12 187:1,11 188:5 189:5,
22 190:13,19 192:17 193:10,19
194:21 196:9,15 199:13 200:14,17
201:15,23 202:5

O- 46:19
oath 84:9 97:14 186:24
object 17:6 22:4 112:2,6 134:19
166:14 190:16 201:10

objection 9:2 11:8 13:21 14:1
16:24 17:1,4,7 27:13,14 35:16,20
38:15,18 46:5 48:17,18 53:6,14,15
68:11 70:4 75:11 81:6,9 83:15
102:1,2 106:21 109:2 113:17,19,22
114:24 115:3,5 117:11 118:16
120:2 121:10 122:22 123:19 124:4,
14 125:3 128:3,24 129:1,22
135:21,24 137:19 141:2 142:18
149:17 153:15 166:12,13 167:20
168:17 169:6 170:6,7 171:8,12
174:9 175:13 176:8 180:9,21
183:7,17 184:6 185:16 189:2,4
192:16 193:18 194:8 195:5 197:16
199:12,21 200:1,11 201:9

OEMC 43:24 44:10,21 45:9 46:11,
20 47:15,21,22 48:16 49:7

offer 133:10
offered 187:9
office 44:21 45:1,2,3 50:20 56:12,
22 59:21 60:11 148:24 157:9,22
161:2,8 165:18

officer 6:3 7:13 18:3 39:5,7,8
42:12 64:2 65:1,20 68:1 70:3 71:2
79:24 80:15 86:24 90:15,20 91:15
94:10 101:9,14,20 107:13 112:17
113:14,16 114:16 127:7,10,24
130:16 139:7 142:3,12 161:12
163:1 167:17,23

122:1,8,20,21,24 124:10,19,24
126:3,9,13 142:9 189:17,20,23
190:1 194:6

ordinance 29:6,10,24 49:17,19,20
50:9 59:17 78:15,17 81:17,18,21,
23 82:1 88:10 93:1,7,13 101:17
103:1,2 107:3,9 108:19,24 142:8,
16 143:5,7,20 146:5 158:16 162:3
165:3,5,10,12,18,21 166:5,10
168:7,24 170:3 171:4

ordinances 92:22 107:1

officer-involved 94:20

originally 107:21 177:16

officers 18:10 21:16,23 23:14

origination 72:10 107:5

43:1,12,17 44:7 45:22,24 46:1,12,
21 47:20,24 48:11 53:21 104:15
106:9 109:9,10 114:20 127:16
142:10 143:2 163:5 182:18 188:17

officials 12:21 67:14 128:16
one-page 150:3
online 152:12 153:10
oops 33:23
op 16:3 18:19 19:3,5 24:4 30:8
38:12 39:1 40:5,23

objections 128:7

operating 59:18

objectives 24:22 25:20,22

operator 5:4

observe 192:10

opine 88:4

observed 193:4

opinion 95:10 115:14 128:21
129:7 137:5 199:1,4,10

obvious- 173:21

opinions 129:5

occasions 45:21

opportunity 82:18 89:7 118:5

occur 94:19

order 7:18 58:24 59:4 121:18

original 106:3 139:1 175:19,24

openness 125:7,12

occupied 75:23 77:4

oral 40:5

officer's 43:13 60:19 163:3

objection's 118:11

obtained 57:6

93:16 106:18

192:9

opposed 137:17 138:17 143:19
145:3,5

outgrowth 23:20
outlined 166:9
outset 149:24
outward 193:3
oversight 17:17,20 18:9 21:1
23:14 25:7 28:16 31:12,23,24
32:20 41:3 44:18,19 163:13 180:12

oversights 32:9
overview 17:11
P
p.m. 5:18 105:14,16 120:16,19
202:12,17

pages 87:12,13 88:22 91:14 94:7
95:18,19 97:22 101:8,19 103:9
114:15 115:21 120:6,10

pain 134:3 200:7
Palmer 192:3,4
paper 132:11 147:10 153:11 155:2
173:23

occurred 126:22

opposite 73:5,18

papers 129:4

occurrence 126:19

OPRA 32:11,13

paragraph 21:15 22:1,10 33:3,8

occurrences 100:16

Oprah 32:16,17

occurs 158:21 186:18

optics 168:13 169:2,9

October 31:10,18

option 62:22 63:4 90:12

OEM- 44:17

options 64:16,22 81:4 89:5 91:24

Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc.· 312-781-9586

42:8,19 54:24 56:14 61:15 111:9,
10 179:1,13 181:16,21 182:6
183:12,19,21 184:7,8,9 186:1,12,
13 187:12,17,20 188:13

paragraphs 31:17

 Index: paramount–problems
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paramount 47:8,11

places 133:8

Pardon 141:7

plain 96:2

parents 148:13 150:2,17 194:18

plaintiff 5:20,21 6:1

200:20

parity 49:1
part 19:11,13 24:3 43:10 58:14
79:1 97:1 102:8,12 104:18 107:23
109:1 134:4 162:2 168:2 182:14
188:11 195:21 196:9

parties 7:18 189:23
parts 78:21 131:3 178:21,22
party 175:2
pass 164:5
passed 29:11 49:20 50:11 58:18
past 17:23 40:21 65:11 105:24
116:24 138:19 140:20 167:10

Plaintiff's 122:6
plaintiffs 6:1,5,7,9,11
plaintiffs' 85:19 86:3
planning 74:13
play 21:2
played 22:24 116:12
playing 115:9,11 185:5
pocket 191:1
point 17:14 39:23 50:5 54:22 69:12
84:7,8 108:3 116:20 130:19 173:11
177:12 179:23 180:5 200:15

pointed 117:14

Patricia 58:1 59:12

pointing 55:15

patterns 51:21 57:5

points 48:1 87:24

pause 105:12

police 14:23 16:7 21:1 25:10,21

pay 91:3
pending 91:21 158:17
people 24:6 28:10,22 47:12 58:13
119:9 134:2 140:23 165:15 170:17
189:12 190:1 194:24

perceived 180:7
perception 193:2 196:7
period 64:6 111:21 112:22
permitted 113:15 115:23
person 93:16,18 133:10 141:18
198:10

personally 159:19 200:18
personnel 24:12,13 45:9 46:17,20
47:21 48:16 49:7

persons 75:23 77:5
phone 36:15 38:7 43:14 46:15
132:12 139:1 148:11 151:1,15
155:13 194:4 199:6

26:6,16,23 27:23 29:19 31:11 33:6,
9 40:16 41:2 42:21,22 43:12,16
44:7,18,20 45:1,22,24 46:13,18,21
47:16,18 49:3 50:20 52:5 53:12,20
54:21 55:3,5,6,9,17 56:12,22 57:2,
5,8,9 60:15,16 61:24 65:13 83:5
88:15 89:10 91:15 93:24 94:2,10
98:14 101:24 102:12,13 104:7,10,
13,14,15,19,20 106:2,9 109:14
111:2,6 113:4 116:23 117:2 122:16
127:16 128:16 142:9 146:13,20
147:1 155:17 158:11,22 159:2
164:22 167:4,13,17,23 168:3 170:5
171:7 172:13,20 173:2 174:6
175:17,22 176:6 177:10,19 178:17
180:13,15 181:1 182:18 183:3
184:4,16,22 185:1,8,15

political 67:14 131:10,11 158:13
164:7

posed 201:5
position 85:24 86:1,4
power 167:18
powers 59:21
practice 150:9 151:14,24
practices 51:21
preceded 20:10
preface 37:2
premise 93:21
premises 126:22
preparation 9:21
prepare 96:22
prepared 10:21 18:18 19:5 100:10
preparing 121:19
preponderance 57:4
present 5:22 89:16,20
presentation 38:13 40:6 173:2
presentations 40:5
presented 18:19 19:3 30:9,22
134:13

presently 173:24
President 32:16
press 34:21 92:12 151:12
previously 69:13 166:15
primary 24:22 25:20,22
printout 176:24
printouts 151:4 179:7,8

police- 128:22

prior 39:1 68:15

police-community 22:12

private 64:8

police-involved 27:11 52:14 94:4

privilege 17:9 113:24 118:16

113:5 123:7

128:6

policeman 181:1

privileged 134:20,21 136:1,14

phrased 108:12

policies 8:18 163:19,20

pro- 17:5 115:8

physical 34:8 153:11

policing 20:15 31:4 88:16 111:8

problem 15:22 16:6,12 28:7 60:8

piece 16:3 19:3 23:4 26:8,12 27:20
38:12,24 106:3 116:19 162:3

place 8:18 31:13 39:2 53:5 64:2,24
93:11 139:3 173:18 188:2,6 192:21

162:13 163:8

policy 18:4 35:3 39:9,10 57:7
90:22 138:18 161:16,21 162:3,23,
24 163:6,7 188:3,16

Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc.· 312-781-9586

68:9 94:11 111:11 127:11 184:12,
17

problems 16:18 108:7 111:7
184:15

 Index: procedurally–read
Page 222

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procedurally 103:7

provision 87:23

procedure 93:7

provisions 171:5

procedures 122:12

public 10:24 11:15,22 13:7 14:22

proceeding 88:20
proceedings 173:3
proceeds 101:8 142:17
process 10:12,13,17 12:18 17:6
24:17 25:9,17,24 26:6,13 27:9
28:14 30:7 40:15 41:1 47:6 49:24
50:24 52:24 54:8 59:16 61:9 63:20,
21 65:8,17 68:7 69:8,15,18 72:1,4,
8,15 73:22,23 74:2 78:9 80:20
88:19,21 94:14,18 95:8,10,24 96:7
102:18 103:6 104:11 105:22,23
107:17 114:11 115:9 116:2,10,11,
21 117:3 118:2,4 119:10,15,16,20
128:10,11,13,15 129:7,13,14 131:9
133:23 137:6,12 139:19,22,23
140:7 142:6,7,17 146:3,10 152:19
158:19,20,24 159:2 165:21 167:8
168:2,10 170:4,10 171:20 172:3,4,
12,16,17 173:17 174:3,5,20 177:17
179:21 180:10,11 190:2

16:1 18:11 26:1 42:13 50:14 58:17
69:8 70:8,9 71:9,11,20 73:3,15
92:10,11 114:22 126:24 132:17
133:15 135:8,17 179:18 180:8
182:23 189:3

questioning 87:17 88:13 93:21
94:12 200:6

questions 12:2 20:8 27:8 28:9
39:4 47:1 50:1 56:1,2 58:8 87:21
88:8 95:4,15 108:5 118:20 123:13
129:14,20 145:18,21 165:14
188:20 199:6,16 201:5 202:4

quick 188:23 201:17,20

publicly 15:4 20:10 33:15 70:11

quietly 99:8

published 11:18

Quintonio 8:17 13:11 35:14 38:2
40:1 45:8,14,20 48:15 75:18,20
76:23 77:12 101:12 108:17 111:23
112:14 132:9,13 136:19 150:1,17
157:6 191:14,17 199:20

pull 26:9 110:8
pulled 14:19
pure 80:14
purpose 56:10,15,16 57:12 92:17
101:22 104:1 122:10 129:11
150:15 151:10 186:2 197:22

purposely 67:24

quote 20:24 31:2 48:9 54:19 56:11,
21 60:12 63:10 79:23 83:1,2
101:20 111:16,18

quotes 41:24

purposes 109:12 122:7 131:1

R

pursuant 5:8 7:17,21 81:21
121:19

race 31:5

produced 30:9 34:12

pursue 134:14

radio 43:15

profession 111:8 182:17,20

push 28:23

Rahm 5:12 6:15 7:1,9,16 34:13

pushed 29:11

raise 68:11 118:16

put 19:23 24:5 27:6 39:1 55:21

raised 54:6 66:23

183:2,4 184:16

professional 18:9 23:15 185:7
professions 182:24 185:3,5
program 194:6 195:4,7,10
prohibiting 99:10

56:4 58:12,16 59:5 100:12 132:8
140:18 164:7 170:11,19 179:22
188:2,6,16 190:24

puts 10:14

Ralph 41:7
rang 127:10

proper 94:12
property 52:12

raising 69:11

Q

range 24:6
rank 185:8

proposed 63:14 171:4

qualification 86:6

re- 110:9 112:9 160:12

prostitution 199:19

question 9:6 11:11 37:3 39:23

reach 101:23 134:13 150:10,13

protect 109:9 183:2 185:10 189:23
190:1

protecting 33:6 127:16
protective 124:10,19,24 126:3,9,
13 189:17

protocols 163:8,13
provide 50:16 56:23 60:18 75:20
76:6 77:11,13 152:1 159:4

provided 88:2 149:23 152:13
155:5 156:5

providing 151:10

43:10 53:8 62:17 65:22 67:8 70:23
71:5 73:10,14,15 78:22 82:15
83:19 88:4,6,12 89:3,21,24 93:17
94:17 95:8 98:3,9,17,20,24 101:21
102:2,9,16,19 103:12,13 105:1,2,
11,18 109:3 112:3,7 113:18 114:17
115:4 118:1,7,10 123:2,22 124:6,
16 134:12 135:16 144:19 145:4
156:14 160:19 166:15 167:21
168:18 169:7 170:23,24 171:24
172:19 173:19 180:9,22 186:6,7,11
189:6 191:3 201:14 202:5

question's 68:2
questioned 36:4 145:22

Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc.· 312-781-9586

155:15,21

reached 79:11 132:22 138:20
154:13 157:9,22 167:16

reaches 26:21
reaching 152:22
reaction 182:21 185:10 186:18
read 13:6 22:15 34:23 67:6 71:14,
19 81:14 88:22 99:8 105:1,3,11,18,
20 110:19 115:20 119:20 120:6,8,
10 121:1,3 129:4 132:11 147:10,
14,16,18 150:18 151:21 152:7
155:1 173:23 183:14,21 184:7
187:23,24 188:9,12 199:15,22

 Index: reading–reported
Page 223

RAHM EMANUEL, 03/29/2018
reading 31:14,15 62:12 99:7
147:12,24 152:13

reads 60:10 61:8 83:11
ready 75:6
real 67:19 188:23 201:17,20
reanalyzing 91:15
reask 11:11 65:23
reason 72:20 90:10 93:19 95:6
102:11,12 104:18 118:24 132:22
141:22 173:20 174:1 186:16,21

reconfiguring 94:7
reconsider 94:6
record 5:2,23 7:8,15 19:11,14,24
48:24 55:7 60:9 67:22 83:2 105:2,
14,17,20 120:13,16,17,19 151:21
155:20 202:15

recorded 5:8,20
recording 5:1,3
recreate 197:22
rectify 174:8

reasonable 80:5

redepose 91:21

reasons 63:1,15 84:24 104:22

reduce 57:8

128:17

reassigning 139:6
reassignment 60:22
recall 30:16 127:18 131:24 132:10
136:11,17 159:23 171:1,14,16
194:1 195:12 196:5,10,16,18

reevaluate 40:11 118:6
ref- 37:11
refer 80:7 182:20
reference 31:24
referenced 37:10 165:11

related 14:10 60:17 91:11 108:4
113:9 125:19 127:20 145:19
147:18 148:12 150:1 152:7,19
160:22 180:13

relates 10:15 18:5 34:2 40:15 72:4
101:10

relating 21:8,11 128:22
relations 22:12
relative 122:12
release 16:22 18:4 21:9 91:21
140:22 141:1,21,23 180:3,6 189:3,
21

released 10:24 11:19,23 70:11
78:7

releasing 23:10 47:4 162:23
relevance 170:7 199:21 200:1
relevancy 170:8
relevant 36:11 96:7 171:10 174:16
194:8,9 200:2

received 154:2 163:3

references 121:18 122:20

reliable 139:24

receives 48:2 143:9

referencing 38:1,9

religious 39:14

recent 197:11

referred 24:5 37:14 111:11,12

rely 108:18 114:23

recently 28:12 39:12
recess 105:15
recognize 149:10

132:6 182:5 184:13,18

referring 12:4 22:13 26:24 31:24
32:3,21 35:12 43:24 92:12 176:14
177:2

recognized 16:20 40:3

refiguring 94:7

recognizing 14:15 39:24

reflect 7:15 155:20

recollection 92:21 124:22 155:5

reflects 30:1

156:17,22 193:1,15 198:3,6

recommend 60:12 61:6 86:24
164:4

recommendation 28:21 39:15
57:18 61:22 62:1,10,15 63:7,24
64:12,23 69:9,15,17 79:15 80:11,
14 81:4 82:11,19 83:3,7 84:14,15,
23 87:3,8 89:6 101:16,18 106:18
107:7,12 114:14 119:24 161:24
168:9 169:17 171:22

recommendations 26:22 29:4
57:7 61:12 64:6 78:11 80:17 81:1,3
82:5,8,17 88:7 90:17 113:15
119:23 121:5 143:10,24 162:7,9
164:2 167:4 169:19

recommended 27:5 47:10 63:13
80:2 86:21 121:5 171:20

reform 23:11 35:2,13 37:24 38:8,9,
14 40:4,10 88:14 163:15

reforming 24:10
reforms 23:11 27:17 38:21,23
40:19 47:5 179:24

remarks 31:7,9 33:17 54:18
110:10,20,24

remedial 60:14,21 61:7,23 64:1,24
82:20 83:4

remember 16:10 46:7 47:2,10,13
49:11 112:20 136:5,22 148:10,14
160:7,9 163:10 171:23 189:17
191:22,24 192:4,6,7,18,20 193:5,9,
10 194:4 196:2

render 129:7
renders 158:22
repeat 13:6 151:18,20

refresh 127:4

repeatedly 101:9

regard 22:14 53:12 61:23 83:5

rephrase 53:8 77:23 112:11

90:14 101:13 114:14 161:5

117:12 166:21 169:9

regs 165:6,7,13

replace 50:22

regulation 105:7 146:5

report 10:3,4,10,18,21,23 11:6

regulations 81:20 88:1 143:16,19
165:11,19,22 166:4,10 168:8
169:13

reiterates 187:6
relate 101:11 123:14

Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc.· 312-781-9586

12:4,5 17:12 22:20 60:20 66:3,6,18
67:4 69:9 70:4,5 71:3 72:19,21
73:1,3 74:3 76:19 79:7 80:7,11
90:7,8 94:20 113:11 130:20 141:8
144:23 152:8

reported 14:5 151:11

 Index: reporter–send
Page 224

RAHM EMANUEL, 03/29/2018
reporter 6:17 15:17 19:11

retrieved 19:2

reporting 69:8

returning 152:21

reports 140:24 141:10,13,17 147:9

review 9:21 10:1 26:5 27:7 28:15

199:15

represent 68:1 70:3 130:16
145:17

representing 132:1
request 48:13 62:22 63:1 64:17
84:16 126:2,8 195:7

requested 63:1
requesting 45:21
requests 82:23
required 63:8 187:21
requires 128:10
reread 32:8
research 71:21
Reserve 202:7
reserved 91:20 202:8,11
residents 53:19
respect 45:5 60:13 62:16 64:2
111:1 127:21 138:5 157:10 158:2
159:4 160:6,24 161:3 164:1 166:9
171:6

respected 117:23
Respectfully 93:19
respond 43:20 62:1 64:6 78:10
82:18 83:6 84:6 87:20 89:7

responded 46:1 169:19
responding 119:22
responds 143:9,24 168:9 169:15
response 45:9 48:14 49:9 62:14
63:16 82:3 83:8,24 84:11 85:1
89:6,22 106:18 108:20,23 119:23
120:23

responses 62:9 64:11 82:2,7
84:11,13 107:7 168:4

responsibilities 161:17 185:12
responsibility 132:8
restructure 79:5
result 79:15 80:3,5 186:19 189:14
resulted 76:3 77:7
retained 141:19

35:4 42:22,23 47:3 48:10 50:2,3,7
55:5 58:17 64:10 68:6 73:24 78:9,
12,17 96:20 104:1,2 110:18 119:17
120:5 125:14 130:19 172:4,13,21,
22 173:3 177:15

reviewed 10:3,4,9 11:13,21 12:14,
15 14:4 16:11 50:8 68:16,17,24
69:9 70:9,24 71:6 72:17 75:3 78:18
91:18 92:4 94:9 100:4 113:9,11
114:11,12 116:14 120:22 141:9

reviewing 18:24 33:12 70:5
110:16

reviews 143:23 176:1
Rialmo 6:3 65:20 70:3 71:2 79:24
80:15 86:24 90:20 101:9,14 107:13
112:17 114:16 127:7,24 130:16
132:2 139:7

role 22:24 29:18,19 61:2 65:2 69:7
89:9,13 92:21 97:17 113:4 116:2
117:3,5 118:3 134:6 135:16 155:17
168:22

Roman 150:15
room 74:20 138:11
root 17:24
Rountree 149:1,2,16
rule 5:8 141:20 146:5
ruled 68:15 69:13 125:13
rules 5:9 7:21,22 60:17 81:20 88:1
102:16 103:1 143:15,19,20,22
165:6,7,10,13,18,22 166:4,10
168:8 169:12 185:12

rulings 169:4
rumors 157:19,20
running 202:13

Richard 5:10

S

rights 91:21
risk 75:23 77:5
Robert 6:3 139:7
Roberts 58:6
robustness 54:4
Rogers 5:24 7:5,15,23 9:4,7,10
11:12 13:22 14:3 15:19,21 18:14,
16 20:1,7 21:6 22:6 28:1 32:18,19
35:18 36:13 37:1 38:16 39:22
42:10,11 45:2,4 46:8 49:5 53:7
54:12,24 55:1 60:7 66:6,8,12,14,16
67:1,2 68:5,9,12 70:7,14,19 71:1
72:20 73:6,9,13,17,19 74:9,14,17,
22 75:12,14 76:18,21 77:21 79:2,4,
19 81:13,18,24 82:5,9,12,14 83:17
84:2,5,13,22 85:4,7,9,12 86:10,12
87:6,9,11,13,16 88:13 89:5,13,24
90:8 91:4,10,14 92:2,6,10,23 93:1,
4,11,19 95:9,12,14,20 96:6,10,12
97:3,6,12 98:2 99:23 100:17,22
101:1 102:4,7 103:19 104:3,16
105:1,4,11,18 106:5,23 109:4,19,
21 110:4,7 112:9,11,12 114:6,9
115:1 116:3 117:13 118:18,21
119:18 120:3,14,20 121:16 123:4,
23 124:10,12,17 125:6,23 126:1
128:19 129:2 130:2,10,17 169:16,
21 178:5,20 181:17,20 182:1

Rogers' 145:3

Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc.· 312-781-9586

safe 74:24
safety 50:14 58:17
sat 8:3,7 113:23
say- 152:21
scattershot 145:20
scenario 45:12
schedule 39:6 163:1
scheduled 58:21
scope 9:2 63:7 68:14,20 90:16
123:19 125:3

Seal 124:9,10
sealed 126:3 140:24
seconds 202:14
secret 123:15,17 124:2,7 201:19
section 59:21 61:10 63:9 64:13
80:24 81:14 82:16 83:12 142:14

sections 80:21
security 8:10
seek 107:19
seeking 200:6
send 64:8

 Index: sens-–spirit
Page 225

RAHM EMANUEL, 03/29/2018
sens- 48:2
sense 53:23
sensitive 49:3 137:2 198:10,12

show 29:23 30:11 33:22 41:17
44:4 51:6 74:2,10 79:14 83:20 89:8
97:9 110:6 122:6 155:9 168:8
178:23,24 187:1

sensitivity 48:3

showed 112:23

sentence 21:7 22:8,21

showing 56:1 70:10 71:1 88:24

separate 46:14 47:15,22 99:12

shown 143:16

131:4 144:11 155:15

separated 109:16
separately 68:10
separates 176:1

shows 51:7 168:7
sibling 134:2
side 51:14 52:7,9 89:1 173:15
194:6

separating 116:17

Sidney 58:6

separation 80:3,15 82:12,13

signature 202:6

84:15 101:16 107:12

sergeant 33:9
series 17:15 18:6 27:6 36:15 39:18
40:24 162:9 179:23 180:1

set 12:19 18:1 39:10 43:11 66:23
67:3 72:14 90:10 107:8 108:4,18,
24 122:10 128:14 140:7 142:7
182:23 186:13

sets 82:2 122:11
seventh 77:24
shadow 53:21
share 21:15 185:8
Sharon 57:21,24
sheet 97:23
shock 65:24
Shocker 90:9
shoot 95:17 127:7
shooting 8:17 12:2 13:10 20:11
34:21 38:1 79:10 90:23 94:20
100:7 101:11 111:22 121:9 126:22
127:1,6,22,24 128:23 132:2 137:8
139:3 157:5 158:21 194:12

shootings 27:11 35:1,11,12,14
37:9,23,24 40:1 42:23 52:14 55:6,
9,17 72:24 89:11 94:4 104:8 112:1,
16 113:6 123:8 175:17,22 176:6
177:10

silence 14:24 109:8,12 110:3,12
111:13 168:5,16 177:21 178:8,12
180:20,24 181:23 182:5,15 183:6,
15 184:4,18,23 185:15 186:9 187:3

situation 10:15 137:17 146:17
154:12 167:16 177:16

situations 133:9 167:16 196:1
skipped 22:1
slightly 24:9
small 21:22 38:4
smarter 103:22
SO8-01-01 122:1,8
son 134:1 192:15,22 193:21,22,23
195:11,19,21 196:8 197:1

son's 194:6
sooner 74:21
sort 163:15 168:16
sorts 100:5
sought 124:1 126:13

similar 155:6 197:7

sound 191:21

simple 9:5 95:4 104:17 105:6

sounds 116:4 145:2

121:12 125:17

source 157:21

simpler 118:23 166:18

space 75:1

simply 39:23 69:12 75:8 80:15

speak 86:2 92:24 151:23 192:10

single 40:22
sir 14:1 32:10 121:22 122:5 149:8
159:15

Siskel 6:12 9:2 11:8 13:21 16:24
20:6 21:4 22:4 27:13 35:16 38:15
42:9 46:5 48:17 53:6,14 54:22 60:4
66:5,7,24 68:10,13 69:6,19,21 70:6
71:4 75:5,8 77:20 81:6,10 83:15
85:13,15 87:20 92:8,12,15 94:23
95:2,5 96:13,15 100:20 102:1
106:21 109:2 112:6 113:19 114:24
115:3 117:11 118:7 120:2 121:10
122:22 123:19 124:4,14 125:3,11
128:3 129:1,22 130:1 134:19,22
135:21,24 137:19 141:2 142:18,20
149:17 153:15 154:10 166:13
167:20 168:17 169:6 170:6 171:8
174:9 176:8 177:23 180:9,21
183:17 184:6 185:16 186:10 187:5
188:9 189:4 190:16 193:18 199:12
201:9,11,21 202:11

200:15

speaking 167:7
speaks 106:22 119:22 133:18
166:8,18

special 121:18 122:1,8,20,21,24
specific 41:23 78:19 181:3 193:20
196:11 197:5,9 201:13

specifically 34:2 36:2 37:10 48:8
49:11 69:24 72:9 98:10 101:11
108:24 119:11,21 128:14 136:23
157:9 195:13 196:2

specifics 80:6 196:5
speculation 35:16 102:3 109:3
170:6 174:10

speech 24:4 30:13,16 32:8 39:2
40:23 72:10 118:8 178:9,10,12,16,
20,23 179:6,8,16,22 182:14,17
183:5 185:17,20 187:7,11,13,16

sit 192:9

spelled 47:1

sit- 199:5

spends 91:14 94:7 101:19

short-circuit 51:4

sitting 115:9

spirit 12:22 14:8 72:14 119:13

shot 40:22 75:18 76:4,22,23

situ- 37:14

short 10:11 59:4 81:11 121:4
154:20 164:6

127:12 166:22

Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc.· 312-781-9586

133:13 136:23

 Index: spoke–tabbed
Page 226

RAHM EMANUEL, 03/29/2018
spoke 134:9 135:2

stop 134:7 135:6,10 144:13

Sun-times 38:19,23 39:16 40:7

spouse 152:24

stopping 39:5

Sunday 42:20

staff 36:17 50:13,14 148:15 152:1,

stories 34:21 173:23

Super- 175:21

straight 170:5 171:7 172:10

Superintendent 12:12,19 13:15

14

stage 65:6,16 72:7 73:24 78:9
106:2

stand 15:4,7 33:15,18 40:19 42:16
116:6,7 127:22 182:24 183:23
184:1 185:19 188:1,4,13 195:5

standard 57:4
standards 18:9 23:15 183:3
185:7,11

strange 147:15
Street 5:5
strength 25:6
stretching 171:19
strike 22:2 32:11,14 35:11 106:24
structural 46:11

standing 116:9

structure 162:4 164:17

standpoint 16:21 45:19 46:11

structures 17:18 163:13 180:12

148:1

stands 186:13 187:11

stuff 50:14 147:18 153:10 155:9
194:24

start 56:2 96:9 179:2,12,20

subheading 110:11

started 72:2,22 93:21 104:12

subject 167:4

108:7 112:3 118:2

submitted 58:23

25:10 26:23 27:23 36:17 54:9
60:12 61:6 62:1,9,19 63:5,11,14
64:5,12 65:3,17,21 73:16 74:7
78:10 82:2,7 83:6,13 87:9 89:3
90:13 91:22 93:3 95:11 97:13 99:2,
11 101:2 103:8 104:12 106:11,19
107:8,19,20 108:20 110:1 112:24
115:13,20 116:8,22 117:2,6,7
119:22 120:1,22 123:17 124:20
125:1 127:23 128:21 130:20 143:9,
23 146:20 147:1 154:13 155:13,17
156:6,11 157:3,10,22 167:5 168:3,
15 169:3,14 171:6,21 172:5,23
174:7 175:16 176:5 177:18 188:3,
15

Superintendent's 26:4,15 29:18
62:14 73:4,24 74:4 82:18 83:8,24
84:5 88:9 90:6 92:5 102:22 106:1
114:4 116:2,16 121:18 146:12
152:9 167:10 168:14,19,22,23

starting 61:17 130:18 146:11

subparagraph 61:4

starts 33:8 153:1 179:14

subsection 59:20,23 63:8,10

supervision 20:24 31:11,21

state 5:9 7:7 33:2 38:5 42:19 54:18

subsequent 12:3 194:3

supplemental 84:18

substance 63:6 68:19 86:20,23

support 18:8 23:14 24:14 127:22

55:2 107:16

stated 33:16 100:15

90:16

133:11

substitute 19:16

suppose 67:16 160:20 168:6,21

succinctly 145:8

supposed 25:4 94:15 158:16

sudden 94:9

Supreme 5:8 7:21 173:8

states 37:22 42:20 56:21

suffer 200:21

surprises 69:5

stating 52:18 79:23

suffered 200:7

surrounding 45:7 111:22

statute 56:8 84:6,7,12 94:5 113:16

suffering 193:17 199:2 200:8

sustained 11:10 53:4,12 76:24

statement 16:1 20:13 42:17
132:18 133:15,18 188:1

statements 14:23 18:19 20:10
33:15 38:10 56:3 126:24 127:15

114:11 115:24 119:21 169:12

sufficient 140:14

stay 19:10,13 41:12 158:16

sufficiently 94:19 136:13

stays 189:18

suggested 27:18 107:21 121:6

step 26:4,7,16 27:18 61:9 65:8,13,

suggesting 12:23

14 74:2 104:4 167:8

stepped 131:11
steps 25:15 26:20 27:6 28:12,13
52:24 106:12 144:22

suggestions 24:10 29:4 46:16
suit 97:9

77:7,18 78:1 79:23 80:3

sustaining 65:19
swear 6:17
swore 84:9
sworn 6:19 7:3
system 88:15 108:8
systems 18:1

Suite 5:5

sticking 88:18

summaries 151:4

stipulate 96:4

summarize 24:21

stipulation 186:22 187:6,8

summary 10:20,23 11:5 40:7
45:20 66:18 69:9,19 70:22 80:7
100:5 113:10 130:20 131:6 162:22

Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc.· 312-781-9586

T
tab 77:17
tabbed 66:19 76:14

 Index: takers–two-step
Page 227

RAHM EMANUEL, 03/29/2018
takers 43:24 46:15
takes 137:16
taking 15:15 32:7 74:14 103:15
talk 8:15 14:13 36:20 41:10 48:23
54:13 178:9,11 189:20

talked 30:8 38:14 49:15,24 59:15
63:19 65:9 94:13 123:6 133:11
137:1 153:8 154:15 165:4 167:2
172:3 178:8 182:3

talking 9:20 21:22 37:14 38:21,23
39:17 54:19 81:23 91:9 109:8
115:10 117:20 144:16 157:5
158:20 162:5 172:16,18 184:14
189:24 195:3

talks 21:15 22:19,21 194:24
taser 77:20,22 78:2 80:1 90:24
91:6 101:14

task 24:5 27:4,18 28:21 29:3 39:2,
19 47:2 54:19 119:6 162:1,5,8,18
163:19 164:2 170:11,19 171:19
179:21

team 42:24 43:6 48:10 49:9 195:21
TECHNICIAN 5:1 6:16 105:13,16
120:15,18 130:6 202:9,12

technicians 44:14,15
technology 17:17 162:14
telephone 36:18 45:13
telling 129:20 147:4
ten 173:10,13,16
tendency 111:16 181:9,10

thin 14:24 109:9,13,15,20 110:3,12
111:11 182:4 184:13,17

thing 15:11 41:5 69:3 72:16 94:9
109:13 119:4 144:5 173:6 196:20

things 11:19 17:15,23 18:6 23:6
24:24 39:11,18 40:24 41:11 44:23
46:24 51:11 52:4,11,13 70:10 83:9
86:16,18 89:15 91:4 93:15 96:7
97:7 103:18 105:6 123:7 145:21,23
150:7 152:7 161:1,2,20,21,23
162:10,16,17 163:9,11,18 166:5
176:21,22 196:3

thinking 115:24 133:13
thirdly 64:18
Thomas 6:4
thought 48:5 75:4 95:13 132:18
three-step 119:16 142:7 163:15
171:20

threw 114:12

theft 52:12

training 17:16 18:4 23:9 24:13
28:11 41:3 42:24 43:3,7 47:7,24
48:3,10 60:22 138:9,12 140:7,10,
13,18,19 162:11,15 163:3,6 187:22
188:15

transcript 125:15
transferring 139:7
transparency 17:18 18:4,10
23:13 39:10 41:3 125:7,11,15,19
162:14 180:12 189:7,10

Tribune 151:3

time 5:18 7:18 15:15 18:2 22:9

triggered 45:24 78:8

23:2 29:22 32:7 35:22 36:7 37:6
38:3 41:10 50:11 54:4 59:3 87:14
100:3 105:16 109:23 111:21
112:20,21,22 129:8 130:3 154:14,
20 157:2 158:21,22,24 160:3
171:13 177:24 180:5,17 184:5,23
187:10 196:9 198:8 201:22 202:12,
13

111:12 127:19 153:17 154:15
176:9 182:4 184:18 186:11,14

timing 37:13 154:19 193:6

title 16:17

23

188:17

till 154:16

testified 7:3 68:18 69:7 89:9,17

text 34:13,18 36:19 159:20 160:4,

trained 39:6,8 163:2 185:12

trial 36:3 189:15

tires 140:9

112:23 202:10

totally 152:18

tighter 90:3

test 35:1,13 37:24 40:3 178:24

testimony 11:9 71:18 92:4 99:18

totality 25:20 26:7,17 80:5

tread 145:24

times 36:3,9 41:15 75:4,22 77:4

103:24 166:15 170:13 201:2

topics 125:12 166:9

thrust 25:1 26:13 185:2

timely 56:24

119:20

topic 191:6

transparent 179:17

term 131:2

terms 11:14 22:14 88:20 108:19

top 20:23 139:15 150:19

throwing 44:11

tendered 96:20,24

termination 91:2

tomorrow 39:21

To/from 148:24
today 8:15 31:2 39:20 47:13 65:11
143:17 147:20 157:3 163:15
167:11 174:2 185:5 198:23 201:2

today's 5:17 120:22 202:10
told 156:13

thereto 154:9

Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc.· 312-781-9586

triggering 49:8
true 20:20 25:21 26:2,24 27:12
29:11 31:13 32:1,22,24 33:18
35:15 38:2,14 40:12 42:17 43:8
47:16,21 50:20,22 52:15,20 53:5,
13 55:19 56:17 57:13,16 58:2 61:7
63:22 64:3,7,14 65:1,9,20 71:20
72:13 79:12 80:12,16 81:5 82:20,
23 83:10,14 106:20 107:2,9,13
108:12,21 109:1 111:2,8,18 112:1,
17,19 113:6 117:2 122:17,21 156:8
165:19 174:21 175:17 177:10
201:2

trust 18:12 26:1 114:22
truth 20:16 31:5 179:19
truthful 60:18 179:17
try- 27:16
turn 49:12 56:4 61:12
turns 175:1
two- 100:5
two-step 163:17

 Index: two-year–working
Page 228

RAHM EMANUEL, 03/29/2018
two-year 79:9 111:21 112:13,19

upheld 185:7

walk 71:24 72:5,11

type 17:16,20 18:12 24:12,13,14

uphold 185:12,13

walks 58:13

upset 196:20,22,24

wall 10:14 12:20 72:4,11 116:16

27:12 43:19 48:2 137:17 138:18
163:4 185:6

upstairs 127:11

types 152:2

usual 117:9 119:1
U

wanted 42:1 48:1 49:23 50:1 59:16
V

ultimate 10:17 164:11 168:10
ultimately 166:1 167:17
um-hmm 14:16 15:5,12 16:5,8
18:21 20:6,12 21:10 22:23 27:1
30:15 33:19 35:6 37:4,21 47:17
49:22 50:21 62:4 67:10 75:16 76:1,
20 79:21 99:19 101:4,7 108:9,13
111:14 122:3 164:24 187:18

Un-uhn 190:24
uncle 33:9
under- 137:14
underlying 14:9
underneath 92:22
understand 8:21 14:14 37:7
45:11,12 46:3 52:17 67:20 107:2,
22 108:1 116:10 120:21 124:16
131:7 133:23 137:2,15 138:6 149:4
156:2 160:19 173:15

119:14 128:11 129:11 130:21
131:2,7,9,19 140:4 146:3,4,6,8
147:23 158:2,3 170:15
67:11 69:24 88:5 133:12 134:3
137:2 178:22 190:15 198:9

vague 153:15 168:17 169:7

waste 22:9

valid 113:22 118:15 128:5,7

watching 15:10

van 195:19

Watkins 6:10

variety 34:18

ways 106:7 109:1,6,7 169:15,16,18

veracity 25:16 26:13

website 11:20,23 51:7,9 176:16
177:1

verbatim 187:6
verdict 158:23

Wednesday 30:22

verified 186:23

week 99:24 112:24 113:8,11,13
179:22 186:23

version 179:4

weeks 20:11

versions 179:6

weigh 117:15 119:12 128:12,18

versus 5:13 10:17 132:2 183:3
video 5:1,3,7,19 6:16 16:23 18:4
21:9 23:10 105:13,16 120:15,18
130:6 180:3,7,16 202:9,12

video-recorded 5:11

understanding 48:14 59:18 65:10

videos 162:24

71:17 78:12 104:18 109:13 121:2
131:18,21 140:17 150:14 154:11
155:12 171:17 180:20,24

videotape 47:4

137:10 140:1,16 141:3 143:14,23
167:18,22 169:3

weighs 115:13
weight 164:7
West 194:6
whatnot 152:9

videotapes 125:20

whatsoever 89:7
who've 138:21

understood 91:19 106:16 119:2

view 12:18 17:15 23:3 170:14

underway 154:23

violation 60:16 91:12

unequivocal 91:11

visit 151:15

whomever 174:7

unfair 95:22,23

visited 138:23

wide 24:6

unfortunate 96:23 189:13

vitality 25:6

with- 135:6

unjustifiable 112:16 121:9

voice 133:10

withdraw 106:24 135:20 153:19

unjustified 13:10 72:24 79:24

volition 158:5

withdrew 135:13

vote 58:19

word 54:11 106:1,13 114:15

112:1

unquote 101:20
W

unreliable 139:24

update 156:13 159:4
updates 159:10

43:10 119:7

132:20 167:11,15 196:12

unrelated 191:5

untie 90:2

wholesale 17:16 23:11,21,24 41:4

wagons 182:22 186:19
wait 172:9 179:5
waive 202:7

Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc.· 312-781-9586

words 134:9,10,17,24 135:2,5
wore 130:8
work 28:9 48:4 75:12 106:3
worked 48:24 103:11
working 47:13

 RAHM EMANUEL, 03/29/2018
worry 68:3 107:24
write 148:18
written 53:24 63:16 150:23
wrong 74:23 137:6 186:4
wrongful 33:4 194:11
wrote 103:9
Y
year 39:6 100:6 163:1
years 23:18 53:4 55:10 94:8
159:24 160:10 173:10,13,16
191:10

yesterday 58:4
yield 130:2
young 46:2
Z
zone 131:9

Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc.· 312-781-9586

Index: worry–zone
Page 229